GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #14

[aneurin]

?

I would suggest that having her in his boot of his car, she would of had to of been in that position she wouldn't have been able to fit in his boot and that she was possibly deposited in a state of Rigor Mortis.

Yes, I was going to say it's because that's how you fit a body into the boot of a Renault Megane.

 

[Nausicaa]

Following all these helpful links and filling in the blanks in my previous knowledge I see that we seem to have :

1. head bruising.
2. no significant laryngeal damage;
3. deep bruising to the muscles of the neck;
4. marks to back and front of neck consistent with two-handed strangulation;
5. a pathologist who rules out instantaneous death, can't rule out a very rapid death but shows no inclination (and rather the contrary I think) to prefer the 10-second version to the 90 second version.

All of this for me conjures up a killer standing in front of his victim and holding her neck with the thumbs at the front, to either side of the larynx, the rest of the fingers at the back pressing hard against them. The result is more ischaemic than asphyxial but allowing for victim resistance is very unlikely to be over in less than ten seconds unless he has already rendered her unconscious by striking her head. I think that if the rapid scream-scream-thud sequence heard by the witness is accurate and was Joanna, it was not her death that he heard but rather attempted strangulation from which she wriggled free, screaming again and being struck hard, blacking her out long enough for him to improve his grip and strangle unresisted.

Just my impression from insufficient data, you understand. The judge and the jury have heard it all; I haven't.

 

[aneurin]

The Independent article linked to above, says that there was haemorrhaging around the eye area which is consistent with venous obstruction.

Ah yes. Specifically, "The particular haemorrhages in the skin, face and eyelids are signs there has been venous obstruction in the head and neck". No 3 then.

 

[Cadfael]

I do not think the foetal position was a deliberate act, he obviously had to remove her from the vehicle and over the wall. None of us can be sure but according to the reports it seems 'most likely' that he carried her in a front position, placing his hands under her knees and carrying her to his chest. From what we know he was unable to get her over the wall, so I think he simply dropped her on the road and left her in this 'foetal position'. He covered her with leaves and then left. Why he left her there nobody but him will know, from the court proceedings he is showing some emotion so maybe he couldn't face going back to retrieve the body and disposing of it. His defence will clear up many issues but there will still be many holes within the story.

 

[bees]

It was stated I believe that she was left in a foetal position, was this deliberate or by chance, if so what sort of killers would do that.

I think the foetal position is a result of VT carrying her and then dropping her at the base of the wall. She would be in that position from being lifted in both arms IMO.

ETA just seen cadfael's post too

 

[whiterum]

All of this for me conjures up a killer standing in front of his victim and holding her neck with the thumbs at the front, to either side of the larynx, the rest of the fingers at the back pressing hard against them. The result is more ischaemic than asphyxial but allowing for victim resistance is very unlikely to be over in less than ten seconds unless he has already rendered her unconscious by striking her head. I think that if the rapid scream-scream-thud sequence heard by the witness is accurate and was Joanna, it was not her death that he heard but rather attempted strangulation from which she wriggled free, screaming again and being struck hard, blacking her out long enough for him to improve his grip and strangle unresisted.

Just my impression from insufficient data, you understand. The judge and the jury have heard it all; I haven't.

Excellent post Nausicaa !!

 

[wfgodot]

I do not think the foetal position was a deliberate act, he obviously had to remove her from the vehicle and over the wall. None of us can be sure but according to the reports it seems 'most likely' that he carried her in a front position, placing his hands under her knees and carrying her to his chest. From what we know he was unable to get her over the wall, so I think he simply dropped her on the road and left her in this 'foetal position'. He covered her with leaves and then left. Why he left her there nobody but him will know, from the court proceedings he is showing some emotion so maybe he couldn't face going back to retrieve the body and disposing of it. His defence will clear up many issues but there will still be many holes within the story.

Are we just assuming he tried to put her over the wall? I mean, it's an excellent assumption, probably the logical thing to do. As you say, "why he left her there nobody but him will know," but I think it's worth considering he left her there immediately, well enough away from the apartments to gain distance, and looked with scorn on the abilities of the authorities to tie it to him. A challenge, as it were.

 

[Redgoblin]

Following all these helpful links and filling in the blanks in my previous knowledge I see that we seem to have :

1. head bruising.
2. no significant laryngeal damage;
3. deep bruising to the muscles of the neck;
4. marks to back and front of neck consistent with two-handed strangulation;
5. a pathologist who rules out instantaneous death, can't rule out a very rapid death but shows no inclination (and rather the contrary I think) to prefer the 10-second version to the 90 second version.

All of this for me conjures up a killer standing in front of his victim and holding her neck with the thumbs at the front, to either side of the larynx, the rest of the fingers at the back pressing hard against them. The result is more ischaemic than asphyxial but allowing for victim resistance is very unlikely to be over in less than ten seconds unless he has already rendered her unconscious by striking her head. I think that if the rapid scream-scream-thud sequence heard by the witness is accurate and was Joanna, it was not her death that he heard but rather attempted strangulation from which she wriggled free, screaming again and being struck hard, blacking her out long enough for him to improve his grip and strangle unresisted.

Just my impression from insufficient data, you understand. The judge and the jury have heard it all; I haven't.

How about this for something way off the mark but feel free to rip it to shreds:

How about he believes she is a burglar but doesn't actually see her properly through the kitchen window. Perhaps he can hear her bumping around in the kitchen, or even be worried by the fact her kitchen light is on, and they (her and GR) were supposed to be away at the weekend?

She also notices him (or just the security light) but due to her lighted kitchen and the fact her security light came on, she doesn't recognise him as being VT.

As for the reason why VT would be there anyway. If he was in his back bedroom he might have heard something or seen the light coming on from the direction of her back bedroom window. Or he could have heard noises from anywhere in his flat coming from next door.

Back to the encounter...

So JY approaches the front door to look through the spy-hole. VT approaches from the outside and kicks the door open hard because he's a bit fearful of what he might encounter. At the very same moment she screams as the door is being flung open fast, but doesn't respond quick enough to stop it opening and gets hit by it.

Him kicking the door open (perhaps JY left it ajar by accident?) knocks her back, thus she gets a bruise to her chin and it breaks her nose on the very tip (as stated by the prosecution in court) as well as receiving bruises to her face.

This could also explain some of the bruising to the back of the head if she was knocked out and fell backwards in the hallway.

He then realises that he's knocked her out cold when he enters the flat and notices blood or bruising and he panics. Could it be in his panic he strangles her by shaking her trying to revive her.?

Perhaps he thinks he's given her brain damage?

If she is limp, how much force would someone need to do damage/strangulation?

 

[kINGFISHER]

I do not think the foetal position was a deliberate act, he obviously had to remove her from the vehicle and over the wall. None of us can be sure but according to the reports it seems 'most likely' that he carried her in a front position, placing his hands under her knees and carrying her to his chest. From what we know he was unable to get her over the wall, so I think he simply dropped her on the road and left her in this 'foetal position'. He covered her with leaves and then left. Why he left her there nobody but him will know, from the court proceedings he is showing some emotion so maybe he couldn't face going back to retrieve the body and disposing of it. His defence will clear up many issues but there will still be many holes within the story.

She was lying on her right side with her right arm around her neck and her left placed over her middle I believe. If she had been lying flat I would have thought that she would not have been seen so clearly, he seemed to have time to place leaves over the body. But as has been said if the body was in rigor mortis it would have been diffficult. But we don't know if the body had reached that level at that time. Still say for a clever guy his choice of leaving Jo there and not anywhere else does not make sense . He must have known she would have been found quickly. Is the emotion real because if he took that pizza from JY flat after he murdered her and then ate it, then I would say he is not capable of any emotion.

 

[Cherwell]

Are we just assuming he tried to put her over the wall?

I understood this was indicated by the bloodstains found on the wall.

 

[Cherwell]

Still say for a clever guy his choice of leaving Jo there and not anywhere else does not make sense . He must have known she would have been found quickly. Is the emotion real because if he took that pizza from JY flat after he murdered her and then ate it, then I would say he is not capable of any emotion.

We have speculated in earlier posts how he apparently intended to put her over the wall on to the overgrown ledge, where she might never have been found ; and the possible reasons why he failed to manage it.

As for the emotion being real, I'm sure it is, but he's crying over his own plight IMO.

 

[badhorsie]

Maybe he subconsciously wanted her to be found

 

[wfgodot]

I understood this was indicated by the bloodstains found on the wall.

Thanks, had forgotten.

 

[kINGFISHER]

we have speculated in earlier posts how he apparently intended to put her over the wall on to the overgrown ledge, where she might never have been found ; and the possible reasons why he failed to manage it.

As for the emotion being real, i'm sure it is, but he's crying over his own plight imo.

Just my opinion but i dont think he tried to put her over the wall. He had the stength to lift her into the car and was probably on an adreniline high which would have made it easier. I dont think the wall was much higher than the boot. If you look at the height of the wall and a car parked on that road the boot is half way up the wall. I think he would have had the strength and height to have put the body over the wall. He also had the time if he placed leaves.

 

[whiterum]

Still say for a clever guy his choice of leaving Jo there and not anywhere else does not make sense . He must have known she would have been found quickly. Is the emotion real because if he took that pizza from JY flat after he murdered her and then ate it, then I would say he is not capable of any emotion.

I agree, how narrow is that verge, it's almost on the road. As you say he could have driven on anywhere and found a better spot. It's as if what the hell this will do.

No this guy is not crying on seeing what he did to Jo it's because of what is going to be done to him because of it.

Anyone who goes for burgers, hours after killing, carrying, dumping a human being has no genuine emotion, none whatsoever imo



J

 

[Cherwell]

Just my opinion but i dont think he tried to put her over the wall. He had the stength to lift her into the car and was probably on an adreniline high which would have made it easier. I dont think the wall was much higher than the boot. If you look at the height of the wall and a car parked on that road the boot is half way up the wall. I think he would have had the strength and height to have put the body over the wall. He also had the time if he placed leaves.

As mentioned only a few posts ago, the bloodstains indicated that he did.

Three other factors to take into account:

It was icy and slippery underfoot
Dead bodies are heavy and cumbersome
The trees on the other side of the wall would have presented a barrier of branches and twigs

It was probably not as easy as one might expect.

 

[wfgodot]

No this guy is not crying on seeing what he did to Jo it's because of what is going to be done to him because of it.

snip-snip

Heaven knows he's miserable now, to borrow from the Smiths.

 

[Luna15]

As mentioned only a few posts ago, the bloodstains indicated that he did.

Three other factors to take into account:

It was icy and slippery underfoot
Dead bodies are heavy and cumbersome
The trees on the other side of the wall would have presented a barrier of branches and twigs

It was probably not as easy as one might expect.

I think that was the problem..

Could her top have got caught on the jagged stone of the wall and this is how it came to end up over her head?

 

[Redgoblin]

I think that was the problem..

Could her top have got caught on the jagged stone of the wall and this is how it came to end up over her head?

I think it could be more likely he wanted it to look like a sexually motivated attack by someone else or he just didn't want to see her face as the thought of a dead person repulsed or scared him.

 

[masekwm]

As for the emotion being real, I'm sure it is, but he's crying over his own plight IMO.

At the moment, I'm still not seeing Murder. I don't see how it happened but it is all very strange. Remember, as far as we know, up until those few hours last December he had a good job, a nice life and suddenly it all changed in seconds.

Perhaps we are seeing the real man in the dock, who is actually very upset at what he did and the consequence of his actions. I'm sure if I was in his place and her death wasn't intentional that I would be crying too!