GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

[Clio]

Was anything other than her nose bleeding? She had over 40 injuries. They couldn't all have happened after she died.

I think by injury the prosecution is counting every single bruise, scratch, scrape etc they could find. That said it's still a lot and the bruising would have happened whilst she was still alive.

I didn't see any mention of bleeding from anywhere other than her nose but she had blood on her blouse and in her hair. Also blood on the toe and sole of the sock that remained on her foot and blood staining on her watch strap

ETA The defence seem to be suggesting that some injuries pre-dated the attack. I'm guessing she may have had a bruise or two and maybe a cat scratch or something but that can't account for many of the stated 43 injuries

 

[otto]

I'm only going by what was tweeted by SWNS from court last Thursday

"Clifton neighbour Harry Walker tells a jury he heard a scream coming from direction of Jo's flat at around 8.30pm"

I remember him saying that he heard a scream, assumed it was someone slipping on the ice and thought nothing more of it. For some reason I recall that he was unsure about the time, but maybe he was able to pin it down.

 

[otto]

I think by injury the prosecution is counting every single bruise, scratch, scrape etc they could find. That said it's still a lot and the bruising would have happened whilst she was still alive.

I didn't see any mention of bleeding from anywhere other than her nose but she had blood on her blouse and in her hair. Also blood on the toe and sole of the sock that remained on her foot and blood staining on her watch strap

ETA The defence seem to be suggesting that some injuries pre-dated the attack. I'm guessing she may have had a bruise or two and maybe a cat scratch or something but that can't account for many of the stated 43 injuries

So there was blood on her face, her shirt, in her hair (was it tied back at the pub?), the sole of her sock (and the other sock is missing), her wrist/watch strap and the wall at the quarry? That's an awful lot of blood for a broken nose after death!

Maybe her nose was broken during the initial attack and she had blood on the soles of her socks because she stepped in it? How else does blood get onto the soles of socks.

 

[Clio]

I remember him saying that he heard a scream, assumed it was someone slipping on the ice and thought nothing more of it. For some reason I recall that he was unsure about the time, but maybe he was able to pin it down.

Here's a bit more about it

Neighbour Harry Walker told Bristol Crown Court he heard a scream at around 8.30pm, when he served a pudding for him and his fiancée Helen.

http://www.epost.co.uk/Tabak-drank-bubbly-killing-Joanna-Yeates/story-13554530-detail/story.html

 

[otto]

Here's a bit more about it



http://www.epost.co.uk/Tabak-drank-bubbly-killing-Joanna-Yeates/story-13554530-detail/story.html

Thanks. I thought I read that he was sitting near the window but it was closed and that he was alone. I must be completely confused about who is who regarding time and place of screams. So 8:30 from the back of the building and 8:45 or 9 from the party across the street. Did the party across the street describe two screams, one longer and one shorter? VT's story fits well into that evidence. Did the prosecution release their evidence (disclosure) before or after VT made the statement?

 

[whiterum]

Yes that is sneaky. What they actually need to consider is more like what the prosecution have said - that he had the opportunity to stop, but he chose to continue, when the consequences of doing so should have been apparent.

Some people are suggesting this was a planned attack - that he was laying in wait. I can't see that being the case: if it were planned, then presumably the plan was a sexual attack or to kill. If he had planned a sexual attack, why no evidence of sexual assault? If he had planned to kill, why was his behaviour after the event so haphazard?

I wonder if the prosecution will question the basic scenario that it was a spurned advance, or will they focus on calling into question his account of exactly how she died (eg suggesting the was more violence involved)?

Maybe not necessarily lying in wait but in her flat up to no good or having a snoop around the place and she returned unexpectedly. He may have thought that JY had went along with GR for the week-end. Since there is only one door in or out, there is no way he could have got out of there undetected, he would have been trapped.

 

[otto]

Maybe not necessarily lying in wait but in her flat up to no good or having a snoop around the place and she returned unexpectedly. He may have thought that JY had went along with GR for the week-end. Since there is only one door in or out, there is no way he could have got out of there undetected, he would have been trapped.

How would he get into the place? It was double locked per routine. GR testified that the windows were always locked, the door was double locked. There was no sign of a break in. I can't see how VT could have been in the flat. I think it's possible that he knocked on the door, maybe with something in his hand to suggest Christmas cheer, and she decognized him as a neighbour so she opened the door. I think he then forced himself in.

 

[whiterum]

How would he get into the place? It was double locked per routine. GR testified that the windows were always locked, the door was double locked. There was no sign of a break in. I can't see how VT could have been in the flat. I think it's possible that he knocked on the door, maybe with something in his hand to suggest Christmas cheer, and she decognized him as a neighbour so she opened the door. I think he then forced himself in.

As speculated before he may have held a key at times IE from the landlord to allow workmen in, since CJ was away in France a lot or from a previous tenant and he got a set cut. It's been said that she could have ran to the door and got it open but was dragged back into the hallway.

 

[Clio]

Thanks. I thought I read that he was sitting near the window but it was closed and that he was alone. I must be completely confused about who is who regarding time and place of screams.
So 8:30 from the back of the building and 8:45 or 9 from the party across the street. Did the party across the street describe two screams, one longer and one shorter? VT's story fits well into that evidence. Did the prosecution release their evidence (disclosure) before or after VT made the statement?

I wondered about when the defence get to see the prosecutions evidence. Doesn't it seem a bit coincidental that both JY and VT were "bored" that night.

On the screams see tweet extracts below. "Flo" and "Zoe" are the "Lehmans"

Next statement Warren Sweet who arrived with mr Phillips at the party at about 2030. He did not hear the scream or see anything untoward

Mr Lehman was with his wife Zoe on the path of 53 canynge rd. He heard two screams

Flo "the first scream was for a moment.... A pause and then the second scream"

Flo Lehman's wife Zoe is now in the witness box. She says they left home that night at 8.34

Zoe "I heard quite a loud scream, I turned round to have a look" was it quite a loud scream? "yeah" "it seemed to come from house behind me"

Zoe said the second scream was stifled or muffled

Could you tell who made scream? "I thought it was a female scream","stifled muffled... Then a thud like furniture falling over"

Zoe "the first scream was loud... The second scream started loud then went quieter"

Zoe said the tone of the second scream changed - it started loud and went quieter. It sounded like somebody was in distress

Peter Brown - Lehmans texted friends asking what time they had arrived as they'd heard screams

Peter Brown was able to let Zoe know that she'd arrived at the party between 8.45 and 9pm

ETA Peter Brown was hosting the party at no 53

 

[otto]

I wondered about when the defence get to see the prosecutions evidence. Doesn't it seem a bit coincidental that both JY and VT were "bored" that night.

On the screams see tweet extracts below. "Flo" and "Zoe" are the "Lehmans"

Next statement Warren Sweet who arrived with mr Phillips at the party at about 2030. He did not hear the scream or see anything untoward

Mr Lehman was with his wife Zoe on the path of 53 canynge rd. He heard two screams

Flo "the first scream was for a moment.... A pause and then the second scream"

Flo Lehman's wife Zoe is now in the witness box. She says they left home that night at 8.34

Zoe "I heard quite a loud scream, I turned round to have a look" was it quite a loud scream? "yeah" "it seemed to come from house behind me"

Zoe said the second scream was stifled or muffled

Could you tell who made scream? "I thought it was a female scream","stifled muffled... Then a thud like furniture falling over"

Zoe "the first scream was loud... The second scream started loud then went quieter"

Zoe said the tone of the second scream changed - it started loud and went quieter. It sounded like somebody was in distress

Peter Brown - Lehmans texted friends asking what time they had arrived as they'd heard screams

Peter Brown was able to let Zoe know that she'd arrived at the party between 8.45 and 9pm

Thank you! The door would have been open for her to hear loud, distressed screams and a thud. Where was the broken pedestal normally?

My wireless mouse just ran out of battery and I don't have replacements, so I'm being forced to learn the mouse pad ...

About the underwear on the pedestal ... was it mentioned whether she was wearing underwear when she was found?

Was the landlord out that evening - he was one floor up and should have heard something if he was at home.

 

[Firefly75]

I believe she was wearing underwear when found - I can't dig out the source right now, but I think the gentleman who found her said he noticed a patch of jeans and knickers. And she had her bra on, but not entirely in place.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ne-the-night-after-he-killed-joanna-yeates.do

 

[Clio]

About the underwear on the pedestal ... was it mentioned whether she was wearing underwear when she was found?

She was clothed when found and her jeans were fastened. She was wearing white underwear

Her jeans were fastened but her bra had been pushed up exposing part of right breast

Witness thought he had seen denim and went back to look. He saw the form of a body and then white knickers and skin.

AFAIK nothing at all was tweeted from court about the pedestal or the underwear in the hall. There were a few breaks for points of law and I did wonder if the pedestal/underwear testimony was deemed inadmissible for some reason. The majority of news articles made no mention of pedestal/underwear

 

[otto]

I put this floorplan together using Revit software months ago. I'd like to visualize where the pedestal was. There must have been some blood found at the scene if the soles of Joanna's socks were bloody ... has that been introduced, or is the only point of argument whether it was premeditated (making a lot of evidence irrelevant?).

 

[Firefly75]

When all has been explained and the trial is over, it would be interesting to go back and reread all the threads to find out where we got it right in our speculations. I remember someone (was it Philb?) doing a lot of work with the quarry pictures, Otto with the flat layout, the speculations about the sock, the pizza, what the perp was like, who could or couldn't have done it.

 

[otto]

I believe she was wearing underwear when found - I can't dig out the source right now, but I think the gentleman who found her said he noticed a patch of jeans and knickers. And she had her bra on, but not entirely in place.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ne-the-night-after-he-killed-joanna-yeates.do

Thanks. So the underwear on the pedestal may have been something VT was taking as a trophy and left behind, or underwear was left on the pedestal for a reason unconnected to the murder.

 

[Clio]

Pulled up over her head! That doesn't sound to me like it happened trying to push her over the wall.

At least the jury saw a photo

Pictures of the snow-covered corpse, which had suffered 43 injuries, were shown to the jury.
.......
Her pink top was pulled up over her head, exposing her navel and her grey bra

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ne-the-night-after-he-killed-joanna-yeates.do

 

[otto]

She was clothed when found and her jeans were fastened. She was wearing white underwear

Her jeans were fastened but her bra had been pushed up exposing part of right breast

Witness thought he had seen denim and went back to look. He saw the form of a body and then white knickers and skin.

AFAIK nothing at all was tweeted from court about the pedestal or the underwear in the hall. There were a few breaks for points of law and I did wonder if the pedestal/underwear testimony was deemed inadmissible for some reason. The majority of news articles made no mention of pedestal/underwear

I'm pretty sure it I read somewhere (a tweet or an article... don't remember) that underwear was found on the broken pedestal. So it was in the hallway, yet VT claims he was on the couch when he inappropriately kissed her and then she was suddenly dead 20 seconds later? Would he claim that it was broken while removing the body and it's not relevant to intent?

 

[Clio]

.... is the only point of argument whether it was premeditated (making a lot of evidence irrelevant?).

That's it exactly. If he had pleaded not guilty to manslaughter, much more evidence would be being shown. As it is, the fact that he killed he, he was in her flat etc is not contested so there's no need to prove it

 

[Clio]

I'm pretty sure it I read somewhere (a tweet or an article... don't remember) that underwear was found on the broken pedestal. So it was in the hallway, yet VT claims he was on the couch when he inappropriately kissed her and then she was suddenly dead 20 seconds later? Would he claim that it was broken while removing the body and it's not relevant to intent?

I've read about the pedestal/underwear somewhere in the news aswell but I had to really hunt to find it - it wasn't tweeted from court and I can't find it now

Is he claiming he was on the couch when he tried to kiss her? I hadn't seen that

 

[otto]

When all has been explained and the trial is over, it would be interesting to go back and reread all the threads to find out where we got it right in our speculations. I remember someone (was it Philb?) doing a lot of work with the quarry pictures, Otto with the flat layout, the speculations about the sock, the pizza, what the perp was like, who could or couldn't have done it.

I was surprised that it was a Dutch architect - in the same field as the victim and her boyfriend, a neighbour of the same age. I wanted to understand the layout of the space to envision how it happened. If the pedestal in the hall was broken, then I think she was attacked at the door. I think I suggested way back when that he came to the door with something that looked like Christmas. I'm still thinking the same thing ... as there's no other way that he would have been in the flat after Joanna got home and locked the door. I have wondered if she pushed the door shut to put things down and then forgot to lock it.

I remember thinking the boyfriend looked crushed, but there were moments when I wondered. There was something about the timeline that didn't work for him ... and it didn't sound right.