GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

[veggiefan]

It will be interesting to see after this trial if Tabak has any previous convictions i.e sexual assualt etc... obviously we wont find this out until a jury verdict has been made.

It was stated back in January, when VT was remanded in custody, that he had never even been arrested before. The public prosecutor (Ann Reddrop) went so far as to say:

"To be fair to him, he is a man of good character both in this country and, as I understand, in Holland."

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/173666/

 

[enzeder]

Speaking of blood - how come they found blood in the boot of his car, blood on the LL wall...and no blood in Jo's flat? If her nose started to bleed in the flat then that's where and when it would have been bleeding the most. So why no evidence of that?

With the high tech resources that they use even microspots of blood not evident to the naked eye can be found. Yet nothing. Surely if there was sufficient blood on Jo (and the odd clot) to be found in his boot and smeared on the wall there would have been sufficiantly more blood when she was alive and bleeding and when she was in the flat? If there was blood in the flat (and if there wasn't - why not?) is it really feasible to think VT could have cleaned any traces ...or rather all traces of it up? I personally don't think so. Take away VT's own admission that he was in her flat and the prosecution would be left with absolutely nothing to back up their claims that he was there.

If it wasn't for this mystery I'd be swayed towards thinking he's made a pass at her, she spurned him, he flippped and whacked her one, broke her nose and persisted his lustful attempts again..and that's why and when she screamed and when he then strangled her. With the lack of blood in the flat I'm back to wondering that wherever and when it was that she had her nose broken, it wasn't whilst she was inside her flat.

I strongly suspect that TB first attacked Joanna outside her flat. He could have been lurking outside her flat and Joanna has gone back outside for whatever reason, maybe to bring the cat back in?, and TB has pounced. I don't for one minute believe that Joanna invited him into her flat. No way. For people to have heard Joanna's screams so clearly I think that it's more likely that the attack occurred outside the flat, however, I do think that he dragged/carried her back into her flat at some point. JMHO

Quote: "Since Mr Tabak's arrest on Thursday, another witness claims to have heard cries from the building where Miss Yeates lived on the night she was arrested. A resident in a building directly behind 44 Canynge Road has told police he heard a woman screaming "Help me" on the night Miss Yeates went missing." End Quote
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-not-know-Vincent-Tabak-says-her-father.html

 

[Firefly75]

He said: “I thought, ‘that’s it’ and I remember drinking some serious amounts of alcohol – and I thought about jumping off the bridge.”

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...ents-i-m-sorry-115875-23503445/#ixzz1bOrTm0EA

Am I supposed to feel sorry for him?

(Pet peeve: why do people think that drinking too much (and then talking about it) is the way to make themselves a tragic character?)

 

[Nausicaa]

If the principle of “Constructive murder” does not apply in the UK, he is probably only guilty on Manslaughter charges since there is absolutely no evidence of "planning". All evidence suggests that he was figuring it all out "on the fly".

This is wrong Kemo. We don't have constructive murder but you don't have to plan to be guilty of murder. Murder in England means that at the moment you killed the person you intended to do so, or at least intended serious injury, or at least foresaw that death or serious injury would result from your acts.

The jury will assess whether that was the case by considering the lead-up, the actual death-dealing acts, and the follow-up; they will take into account their impression of VT, and their knowledge of what people in general know and how they think.

 

[Clio]

so his timeline has her screaming after the witnesses had heard two screams... why is he making the timeline later?

If she was killed very soon after she got home it suggests that VT already had some sort of intention of doing "something" to her as soon as she did get home.

If she was killed later then the picture is different. VT texts his girlfriend he is bored at 9:25pm and sets off to to go to Asda. He passes her window and is waved in. His misreads her friendliness. After all he has only ever had one girlfriend whom he met through a dating agency so he misinterrepted her flirty comment and it all escalated from there....His actions afterwards, although disgusting, were a result of blind panic and therefore irrational

But IMHO it doesn't really make a lot of difference. The key issue is that, at the the point that he had one hand over her mouth and the other around her throat did he realise that what he was doing might seriously harm or kill her? Why did he not stop.........

 

[notsure]

It was stated back in January, when VT was remanded in custody, that he had never even been arrested before. The public prosecutor (Ann Reddrop) went so far as to say:

"To be fair to him, he is a man of good character both in this country and, as I understand, in Holland."

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/173666/

Perhaps he got away with it before.

I think if he had got the body over the wall, it's likely that he would have got away with it, and carried on with his "normal" life. Until next time.

Even if the killing were accidental (which I don't believe), that makes him an extremely dangerous man, who is unaware of what he is doing when he is in the process of killing someone.

 

[bos]

Let's hope Lickley drives the point home about JY's injuries & how she gained them when alive given VT's story. They are key imho; an attempt to silence screams/bring her under control before moving onto strangulation to make sure of silence at whatever cost.

I've always found it odd that psychiatric reports are only called for prior to sentencing, to me, VT displays all the hallmarks of pathological narcissm.

 

[Clio]

I'm sure that VT is telling part of the truth. What we have is a very well educated young man from a good family that appears to be very remorseful for what he did. At some point he made the wrong decision and killed Joanna. The big question, I suppose, is what are the chances that he'll do it again. The prosecutor seems to believe that he is extremely manipulative and calculating, potentially making him a very dangerous man.

I think it's true that he entered Joanna's apartment, attacked her, killed her, put her body in his car, cleaned up, covered his tracks, established an alibi, accused his landlord and did everything he could to get away with murder, while at the same time the fear of being caught was eating him alive.

Decision being the key word here i.e he knew what he was doing would result in her death.

 

[Cherwell]

Quote: "Since Mr Tabak's arrest on Thursday, another witness claims to have heard cries from the building where Miss Yeates lived on the night she was arrested. A resident in a building directly behind 44 Canynge Road has told police he heard a woman screaming "Help me" on the night Miss Yeates went missing." End Quote
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...d-not-know-Vincent-Tabak-says-her-father.html

Can I just clear this point up again. This witness was misquoted by the national media. The incident did NOT occur on the Friday night, but in daylight hours, probably between 1000 and 1230, although the witness was unsure which day it was. He has not been called as a trial witness, so clearly everyone is satisfied that whatever he heard was unconnected.

 

[whiterum]

I don’t think those tears are for taking Jo's life or for what her family are suffering. He is remorseful ok but only for his plight and what he has lost. He doesn’t even think he is totally to blame at all.

lickley: "You say that Joanna made a flirty comment?" Tabak: " Yes"

So Jo instigated the events.

lickey: 20 seconds might have been more? 'yes but very likely it might have been less. I remember that she went limp yes'

(Very likely) it might have been less, why would less be very likely when he admits it could have been more. I remember that she went limp, she could have went limp after 60 seconds or more you bu****itter.

VT:I am so sorry for doing that. I put Jo's parents through a week of hell.:

A week of hell ? What the… it ’s been hell for her family since he killed their daughter. It is hell for them now, just watching him trying to justify himself. It is hell seeing the pictures of her bruised body which will remain and haunt them till the day they die. It is hell that because of him they will never, hold, hug or see their beautiful daughter ever again!

He told the court that it was his love for Tanja that got him through

She was only away for a matter of hours and he’s out already making passes (to say the least ) at young neighbours haha!

But Nigel Lickley QC, prosecuting, rubbished his claims of remorse.
He told Tabak: ”You were very calculating, dishonest, and manipulative. And if you were like it after this event, you were like it before and during – and even today.

Too true Lickley, himself to a tee. I have no sympathy at all for this man he has shown none and does not deserve to be given any imo.

 

[Sarahlou]

Two things that definitely arent normal -

1 = A woman screaming if a man attempts to kiss her.

2 = A person gets strangled to death for screaming

As you say above, most men/women not wanting to be kissed by another person probably would react by saying "what the **** do you think your doing ?? - get out of my flat at once...", which leads me to suspect that the truth is he may well of attempted to kiss her before being rejected but then went on to force himself onto her, causing her to panic & scream fearing rape, he did hold her mouth, he did throttle her, he did murder her. He couldnt stop himself, he killed her before he could rape her. The adrenaline took over for those fateful moments, if she had stopped screaming he probably would of raped her - he did say he let go of her mouth, but she kept screaming, this was the point where he could of walked away & that would be that, but it was rape or die in my view. But he couldnt rape her screaming her mouth off, & thats why he wouldnt let go of her throat.

THIS is exactly what I think happened.

 

[veggiefan]

Perhaps he got away with it before.

Given the high detection rate for homicide in western countries (92% in the UK) that would not be very likely.

 

[aneurin]

In the US any death that occurs during the commission of another crime is automatically murder; even if no harm was intended. (An example would be when the gun of an armed robber accidentally discharged). This is referred to as “Constructive murder”.

Does the same principle apply in the UK? ....

Not any more. It was abolished by the Homicide Act 1957.

 

[aneurin]

...If the principle of “Constructive murder” does not apply in the UK, he is probably only guilty on Manslaughter charges since there is absolutely no evidence of "planning". All evidence suggests that he was figuring it all out "on the fly"...

No, as previously stated, 'planning' or 'premeditation' are issues for sentencing and don't directly effect guilt. All that is required is to show intent, and in this particular case all the prosecution have to show is that a reasonable man would know that the action of placing one hand over someone's mouth and the other around their throat would inevitably cause either death or serious injury to that someone.

 

[Neurotripsy]

rupertevelyn

Court resumes

To kiss a woman on the mouths is a sexual act VT? he says i don't think so'

what did you have in your mind? 'i tried to kiss her'

why did you try to kiss her, because you would find it enjoyable? 'yes' says VT

it's enjoyable because? 'because it's nice to kiss someone' what type of kiss did you have in mind? 'a kiss on the mouth'

i wanted to kiss her on the mouth' a woman you'd known for a few minutes? you didn't even know her name.

'you say it was a few minutes i'd say it was ten minutes' says VT

 

[MMENJBRIT]

the heat is on for Tabak

 

[Neurotripsy]

rupertevelyn

that is sexual VT? 'i don't think so' why won't you admit that? 'i don't think it's sexual'

was the holding of her throat sexual in your mind? 'definitely not' were you sexual aroused when holding her throat? 'definitely not'

you thought she was attracted to you? 'as part of the whole conversation' what else tell us more we haven't heard of any more. VT is quiet

'she was cheery and happy she made a comment' lots of people are cheery and happy Mr Tabak that doesn't mean she wants to kiss you.

 

[aneurin]

... It will be interesting to see after this trial if Tabak has any previous convictions i.e sexual assualt etc... obviously we wont find this out until a jury verdict has been made.

I personally doubt that VT has any "previous convictions i.e sexual assualt etc". If he had, it is likely that the prosecution would have introduced them into evidence under the 'bad character' provisions.

 

[Neurotripsy]

rupertevelyn

was there in fact very little said? 'we had a conversation for I think 10 minutes'

that's the answer to a lot of your questions Mr Tabak i can't remember? 'that's because I can't remember says VT'

on 11th Jan you browsed the internet? 'true' you started looking up aggravating factors. why? 'as part of other searches i can't remember'

then you looked up manslaughter and murder. murder UK aggravated is what you looked up

inquiries relating to sexual conduct why? 'as part of other searches' but why? 'i was worried if my pass could be seen as sexual conduct'

you unlawfully assaulted Jo Yeates? 'i am responsible for her death yes'

you knew it was a sexual incident did you not? 'no i wasn't' hence your research that might be used. 'when' when you were arrested perhaps

David Yeates and Greg Reardon are in the public gallery. Jo's mother is not in court today


skynewsgatherer

"I was worried that my pass at her could be seen as sexual conduct, or sexual offence. I was not sure what sexual offence meant." VT

"You knew this incident with Joanna Yeates was a sexual incident, hence your research to clarify the terminology." Lickley. VT:"Not true"

 

[whiterum]

Perhaps he got away with it before.

I think if he had got the body over the wall, it's likely that he would have got away with it, and carried on with his "normal" life. Until next time.

Exactly-Just like Christopher Halliwell, if his taxi had not been caught on CCTV, not only would he have likely got away with Sian O'Callaghans murder but also the murder of Becky Godden-Edwards, the young lady whose body was buried in a field and lay undetected for years.