GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #16

[Sammyme]

Well I'm glad we've got that one sorted out!

Heh...:floorlaugh:

 

[aneurin]

Absolutely Aneurin. I was only teasing. And indeed re-reading your old posts your predictions were very close to what the trial has revealed. And I for one have greatly appreciated your contributions throughout.

OK, fair enough.

Having said which I am rather proud that somewhere in the very early posts on Joanna's death there is one on which I guessed that the killer would prove to be a close neighbour who told police he had spent the evening at home reading a book. I think that in reality version 2 of Tabak's story in fact turned out to be that he spent the evening at home watching TV.

That was a fundamentally good deduction as well. I initially thought that she might have been followed home by someone from the pub, but then realised that you also had to put the car at or near No 44 as well as the person.

 

[goldielox]

Re. post 1169 - if this is true, I only hope the *advertiser censored* stays in some UK prison for long enough so that some ODCs (ordinary decent criminals) can get their hands on him and show him a thing or two.

I'm sorry for his family and all that, but what he did was completely evil, despicable and worse.

He's likely to be on the segregation wing (Google rile 43) and so amongst those inside for rape and sex and child related killings. They do have a pecking order on that wing - child killers and peidophiles being the lowest-and generally ignored by the majority on the wing. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to those who think he's going to be "in for it" whilst in there- he won't be. The "ODC's" will shout abuse at him/them on that wing given an opportunity but otherwise the two wings are kept separate.

On the subject of him being transferred to a prison in the Netherlands that could have some positives....I'm thinking in terms of Jo's family here - if he's in prison over there then there's perhaps less likelihood of stories about him (like the Sun one) appearing now and then in the British media. Her parents won't obviously ever forget, but as time goes on their woulds will be reopened afresh every time an article appears about VT, so the less they have to read the better.

 

[goldielox]

OK, fair enough.



That was a fundamentally good deduction as well. I initially thought that she might have been followed home by someone from the pub, but then realised that you also had to put the car at or near No 44 as well as the person.

I remember trying to look in to VT at the time, alongside the rest living at 44 and next door, but my money back then was on LP.

 

[Luna15]

This article is obviously based on the press conference that the police held after the verdict yesterday (cut on SkyNews) answers some questions about when VT first came under suspicion and the process leading to arrest:-

Tabak under suspicion within days

http://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/tabak_under_suspicion_within_days_1_3196734

 

[aneurin]

It reads like a prepared formal statement.

Yes it does. I expect it is a condensed version of what he'd already told the police.

It is as if he is saying what he thinks is the expected thing to say in such circumstances. Part of the reason he might do that is that he is in a foreign country and speaking in a foreign language. He might therefore be less sure of his ability to express himself naturally.

Yes, he just got it wrong (which is the point), and whilst I understand what you're saying about a foreign language, but that would impact on form rather than content.

Of course, overriding that, overwhelmingly it would serve his interests to distance himself and I agree that it does distance himself from the scene but I am not sure it demonstrates that he is a -path of some kind or another. It takes a lot more knowledge than we have to make any sort of diagnosis. Not that we are qualified to make a diagnosis, in any case. It's not an amateur thing.

Everything here on Websleuths is an amateur thing.

 

[goldielox]

This article is obviously based on the press conference that the police held after the verdict yesterday (cut on SkyNews) answers some questions about when VT first came under suspicion and the process leading to arrest:-

Tabak under suspicion within days

http://www.stamfordmercury.co.uk/news/tabak_under_suspicion_within_days_1_3196734

Had they waited for the DNA results they could have spared CJ a lot of heartache.

 

[aneurin]

I read through most of the articles yesterday and it's my understanding that VT was initially ruled out. It was when the investigation focused on the landlord that VT spoke with his girlfriend, when they were in the Netherlands, and VT mentioned that the landlord's car had been turned around at some point during the evening/night. Between VT and the girlfriend, it was decided that the information should be passed along to police. Two officers thought the information was so important that they flew to the Netherlands on NYE to meet with VT. I think I read that they interviewed him for 7 hours, and that during this time his questions, particularly regarding DNA, showed too much interest. At the end of the interview they asked him to provide a voluntary DNA sample. My impression is that if he had stayed out of the investigation, he would not have been made a suspect. That is, that phone call from the Netherlands regarding the landlord is what put the focus on him even though he had previously been ruled out.

My (entirely hypothetical) magnum opus How To Commit Murder And Get Away with It contains much useful advice for the homicidally inclined and contains a number of cardinal rules which must not be broken in any circumstances, including;

- never volunteer information to the murder investigation
- never show any interest in the conduct of the murder investigation

 

[aneurin]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-We-hope-his-lifes-a-living-hell-in-jail.html

Killer: I'll do time in cushy Holland ...

What it says in s1 of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 is that you can transfer a prisoner where a) the prisoner consents and b) the "relevant Minister" and the "appropriate authority" in the other country agree to the transfer. Personally I'd guess that Tabak's chances of persuading the government to agree to transfer him to the Netherlands to serve his sentence any time soon are somewhat remote.

 

[edgedweller]

I think in this particular case, the evidence of this extra-curricular interest of VT's is directly relevant to the issue of whether the crime was murder or manslaughter. It throws light on the issue of intent. Without that evidence, the jury might have believed that he put his hands around her neck to stop her from screaming. With that evidence, it would seem more than likely that he did it for a sexual reason. That being the case, he had to carry on until she died. He was never intending just to throttle her for a few seconds to get his sexual thrill, then stop. Once he laid hands on her throat, he knew he would have to carry on until he she was dead.

Therefore, withholding that evidence did not allow the jury to see clearly that he had intent to kill.

But as the "average" person on the street would find those pornographic images pretty vile and disturbing, it would be highly prejudicial against VT to let the jury know his 'tastes'. And that would give VT grounds to appeal on the basis that he did not get a fair trial - if the verdict was overturned that would mean possible another trial or even worse VT could walk free. The judge took a risk, yes, but he knew that the sentencing would be LONG whatever the verdict. I think the judge 'judged' (!) it very well and had faith that the jury would come back with the correct verdict.

 

[edgedweller]

The most recent mug shot of VT bothers me, especially when compared to the previous photos.

It's like he's not there anymore, like he's disconnected from the world and his situation. I wouldn't be surprised if some form of breakdown follows and he is certified insane. I feel this is not the first crime he will connected to, either in the UK or abroad.

I think he looks exhausted - he was arrested at 6am and presumably hadn't been sleeping brilliantly for the previous month (that part of his testimony I believe - not because of any guilt over Jo, but because he was worried about getting caught).

I read in the Guardian today that the DNA sent to the USA and Netherlands did not link him to any unsolved crimes.

 

[edgedweller]

I do think that is an excellent point and was something I was thinking about yesterday....with this information it does point to it being a failed rape attempt, resulting in murder. As you say the films were not 'snuff' which suggests the women in these videos were dominated and strangled during sex BUT were not killed.

It's confusing though - if he only meant to rape her (or if he thought she fancied him and decided to try his luck), then he chose the completely wrong person. Someone who lives next door who can immediately recognise you and tell the police is a poor choice.

Why did he choose Jo - I know it was probably opportunistic, but his chances of getting caught were HUGE. If they DNA'd every man in Canynge Road, that's it. I just can't understand how someone goes from respectable good-job slightly quiet all-round nice bloke to cold-blooded killer of the girl next door. That's why I think he might've done it before - perhaps previously he HAD managed to get a body over a wall...

 

[Sammyme]

[cut]
Everything here on Websleuths is an amateur thing.

Precisely.

 

[Cherwell]

It's the whole cause and effect thing - and proving that looking at such images caused VT to behave in this manner. It couldn't be proved, and as other posters have mentioned, allowing this material into evidence may have given VT's defence team grounds for appeal. Nobody would have wanted that. I think the judge was right to act as he did and exclude it to ensure a scrupulously fair trial.

I think the real problem is the apparent ease of obtaining grounds for appeal. There's something very wrong when a judge is reluctant to allow relevant evidence for fear of the villain being allowed to come back and have another go.

:furious:Robert Brown:furious:

 

[Sammyme]

It's confusing though - if he only meant to rape her (or if he thought she fancied him and decided to try his luck), then he chose the completely wrong person. Someone who lives next door who can immediately recognise you and tell the police is a poor choice.

Why did he choose Jo - I know it was probably opportunistic, but his chances of getting caught were HUGE. If they DNA'd every man in Canynge Road, that's it. I just can't understand how someone goes from respectable good-job slightly quiet all-round nice bloke to cold-blooded killer of the girl next door. That's why I think he might've done it before - perhaps previously he HAD managed to get a body over a wall...

I read that the police searched his flat on around the 22 or 23 December, looking for Joanna. They didn't find her and apparently he acted normally.

What else did they do? Did they question every resident of the flats in the house and take details of their alibis and / or movements on that evening and check them out on CCTV or with other people? There doesn't seem to be any indication that they did.

In relation to a question someone asked earlier about how he came under suspicion, I've just thought of something: in addition to the odd behaviour that the female police officer noticed when the police interviewed him in Holland (after CJ was arrested and VT had contacted the police about CJ's car having been moved on the night of 17 Dec), he said something different from what he had told them previously about his whereabouts on 17 December. I think it was that on first contact with him on the night of 17 Dec / early morning of 18 Dec, he'd told them he'd been at home all evening / night. Now in Holland, he said he had been out, I think to the supermarket.

 

[brownbread]

I think the real problem is the apparent ease of obtaining grounds for appeal. There's something very wrong when a judge is reluctant to allow relevant evidence for fear of the villain being allowed to come back and have another go.

:furious:Robert Brown:furious:

I think if he'd denied manslaughter, it would have been a different story and the evidence would have been permitted, because it suggests a reason he had his hand round her neck. However, as it stood the fact he had his hand round her neck wasn't contested - the issue at stake was whether he foresaw the consequence of doing so.

 

[Luna15]

What it says in s1 of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 is that you can transfer a prisoner where a) the prisoner consents and b) the "relevant Minister" and the "appropriate authority" in the other country agree to the transfer. Personally I'd guess that Tabak's chances of persuading the government to agree to transfer him to the Netherlands to serve his sentence any time soon are somewhat remote.

I trust your judgement, and I sincerely hope you are right.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

What it says in s1 of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 is that you can transfer a prisoner where a) the prisoner consents and b) the "relevant Minister" and the "appropriate authority" in the other country agree to the transfer. Personally I'd guess that Tabak's chances of persuading the government to agree to transfer him to the Netherlands to serve his sentence any time soon are somewhat remote.

I don't think he deserves any accommodations. Despite his aging mother and family in Holland, why should he be allowed to continue to pull strings? As harsh as it sounds even his own Mother has to accept that he needs pay the price.

 

[bees]

The extent of how dangerous this man is makes me shudder. We now know that he was fired up with an insatiable sexual appetite for strangling a pretty woman and his high intelligence and rationality weren't enough to prevent him from acting on his perverted drive for sexual satisfaction.

The rational side of him now says he didn't mean to kill her and he might well believe that but his overpowering desire to enact a scenario that he was obsessed with makes him hugely dangerous to the public.

How tragic for Jo and her family that she was in his sights and if it hadn't been Jo, it would have been another pretty young woman. The only comfort (if you can call it that) is that he's been caught now before he had the chance to perfect his track-covering expertise and become a serial killer.

I really hope his family will learn to accept that this was no accident and that his punishment is justice. I feel very sorry for them but they are intelligent people and having now learnt about his dangerous sexual obsession, I hope they'll also be glad he was stopped now rather than later.

 

[bees]

I don't think he deserves any accommodations. Despite his aging mother and family in Holland, why should he be allowed to continue to pull strings? As harsh as it sounds even his own Mother has to accept that he needs pay the price.

I agree. His family don't live far from England so they can visit him easily here via car, train or plane. His mother is only in her 70s and isn't bedridden so she can travel.