GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #16

[whiterum]

ebs ?

Evil *advertiser censored* Syndrome LOL

 

[Deckard]

The lack of dna evidence found in the flat is puzzling. VT wasn't wearing gloves when he killed Jo as finger nail marks were found on her neck and he has admitted he was in the hallway, kitchen and bedroom.

I was taken in by how unlikely a killer he was by saying I would rather take a train journey with VT than CJ. How wrong I was!

In my defence, LE didn't initially find him suspicious either.

I wonder now if CJ's lack of owning a tv made him less media savvy when talking to reporters outside his home making him look like such an unsympathetic character.

 

[veggiefan]

It is a great pity that they did not find the pizza. I've been wondering where exactly they searched for it.

All that was said at the time was that they were fifting through nearly 300 tons of rubbish from the locality.

He dumped it at a recycling point within (I'm guessing) about half a mile of the flats?

A bit more than that - Victoria Square is nearly a mile away.

I think part of the problem was that the police started the search rather late - they didn't stop refuse collections in the area until the 23rd December, but it could well have gone by then, as recycling points are often emptied more than once a week (and I don't know if they would have checked so far away as Victoria Square).

 

[veggiefan]

I wonder now if CJ's lack of owning a tv made him less media savvy when talking to reporters outside his home making him look like such an unsympathetic character.

Possible, but having watched yesterday's ITV interview with CJ, I was struck by what a nice, charming bloke he seems. Very relaxed in front of the cameras and not so much angry at his arrest as frustrated that the police were wasting precious time on the wrong person.

 

[Sammyme]

There was a lot of legal drama going on behind the scenes of this case that we knew nothing about.

As well as the attempts by the prosecution to get the evidence of his sick preoccupations into court, we now learn from an article in The Independent that the press and BBC were instructing barristers to get this information released for publication once the verdict was known:

Media win legal bid on Tabak *advertiser censored*

The media won an important victory for press freedom following an attempt to block the publication of Vincent Tabak's sordid sex life and interest in violent *advertiser censored*, it can be disclosed today.

The prosecution in Tabak's trial tried to stop details of material recovered from computers linked to the 33-year-old being published after his conviction for the murder of Joanna Yeates.
Details of the police investigation revealing that Tabak had paid for sex with a prostitute and was obsessed with extreme internet *advertiser censored* emerged during his trial at Bristol Crown Court.
In an attempt to put this information before the jury, prosecutor Nigel Lickley QC made two applications to Mr Justice Field and disclosed what investigators had discovered about the well-educated and apparently respectable Dutchman. ...

The judge made two orders under Section 4(2) and Section 11 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981 prohibiting publication.

However, after the jury retired to consider its verdict, Mr Lickley sought to continue both orders beyond the end of Tabak's trial.
He said police were carrying out further inquiries into what was found on the computer hard drives and were yet to question Tabak about it. ...

The Press Association and the Bristol Evening Post had both made written submissions to the judge opposing Mr Lickley's application.

A barrister, who had been jointly instructed by The Times, Daily Telegraph and The Sun newspapers and BBC, also addressed the judge opposing the prosecution application.

William Clegg QC, for Tabak, said he did not oppose the lifting of both orders. ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-on-tabak-*advertiser censored*-2377177.html

 

[Clio]

The lack of dna evidence found in the flat is puzzling. VT wasn't wearing gloves when he killed Jo as finger nail marks were found on her neck and he has admitted he was in the hallway, kitchen and bedroom.

As posted above, we don't know there was no DNA found in the Flat. Presumably DNA was found. If both the defence and prosecution agreed he'd been in the flat then the fact is not in dispute and there's no need to prove it in court hence we didn't hear the DNA evidence

 

[Cherwell]

Right back at the beginning of the trial, there were reports of legal argument over a document which the judge did not allow to be used in evidence because it might result in a "great injustice". I wonder what it was.

Anyone else remember this? I think it came up even before the jury was sworn in.

 

[weeeva]

I can't get my head around this. It's one of the more horrific murders I've ever encountered. VT is a predator that enjoys the suffering of others - the more they suffer, the better he feels.

It's frightening when you think how strong this perversion is, to risk everything by murdering his next door neighbour for the sexual thrill of it.
Does this mean that his urge to commit such an attack, is stronger that the natural will to survive?
This urge must take over the whole being.
If he had chosen a COMPLETE stranger, by abduction or attack in a lonely place, he may never have been caught and in all likelihood, would have killed again.
Or has he killed before but this time struck too close to home, resulting in him being caught?.
My heart goes out to all of those who loved Joanna.

 

[Luna15]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-We-hope-his-lifes-a-living-hell-in-jail.html

Killer: I'll do time in cushy Holland
EXCLUSIVE
By STEPHEN MOYES in Arnhem

MURDERER Vincent Tabak is plotting a transfer to a jail in his native Holland, where prisons are so soft they are compared to HOTELS.

Tabak can ask for the move under international prison transfer rules.
And he is expected to apply immediately, pleading that his mum is seriously ill and will not be able to visit unless he is sent back home.

Mum Sonja sobbed and wailed, "No, no, no, no" as she received news of the guilty verdict yesterday.

Despite friends and family comforting her at her flat in Arnhem, she was unable to speak through her tears.

Asked about Tabak's minimum 20-year prison term, Sonja wept. His sister Ilse curtly said: "There is nothing to say. No more."

A family friend said knowing her son was a killer had made Sonja "gravely ill".
Tabak's family still believe his claim that Jo's death was accidental. They admit they are still standing by him — and following his orders.

Brother Marcel and sisters Ilse and Cora attended the trial but stayed away on Tabak's instruction as the verdict was given.
Marcel told The Sun: "Vincent has asked us not to say anything. We won't bad-mouth him. We don't want to comment."

Dutch prisons are known for their luxurious hotel-style facilities, with each cell having its own heater, fridge and microwave.

A family friend revealed: "Tabak thinks he's got it all sewn up and he'll be living out his sentence in luxury. He says his trump card is his mother's health.

"He is terrified of getting beaten up in a UK jail, but thinks he'll have an easy ride once he's back on home soil."

If this article has any truth in it, it gives you an insight into what a mollycoddled spoilt little b@stard Tabak really is, and probably always has been – they are still allowing him to manipulate them by following his instructions not to talk to the press, and stay away for the verdict... I wouldn’t mind betting they will be fighting tooth and nail to get him back on homeland where he will have more chance of being over indulged by them like he probably always has been.

No one expects them to “bad mouth him” but a few heartfelt, sincere words of recognition for the pain and devastation he has caused might go some way in showing their concern for everybody involved.

Whilst I sympathise with his elderly mother to some degree, I feel she will just have to face the consequences of her son’s actions in the same way that Mr & Mrs Yeates have had to face it. I’m sure that they would give everything they own to be able to jump on an Easyjet flight and into a car to be able to hear their daughters voice just one more time.

Maybe the police enquiries that we have got to hear about might go some way to ensuring he is kept here for a good while longer, no way does that manipulative c*** deserve a soft option and his family will just have to accept it.

 

[Firefly75]

Re. post 1169 - if this is true, I only hope the *advertiser censored* stays in some UK prison for long enough so that some ODCs (ordinary decent criminals) can get their hands on him and show him a thing or two.

I'm sorry for his family and all that, but what he did was completely evil, despicable and worse.

 

[weeeva]

ITA it was completely relevant and totally a game changer. I'm still stunned and horrified as I have been in a personal quandry all week with feeling very wrong about my opinions of guilt of murder vs manslaughter, I shudder to think if I were on this jury, maybe I would have felt sorry for his tears (as I am a damned sap) and I would have been one of the manslaughter voters, I think I would die if it was me and then they told everyone about the *advertiser censored*!! that was the missing link that made this all make (some sort of) sense!

I wouldn't beat myself up if I were you, or if I were any of the 2 jurors.
That is why I think the jury trial is the fairest way to go.
Of course there are going to be people on a jury, with mushy hearts, and people terrified they may make a mistake. It is better to have that than to have folk who just want to get home asap, so they just go with the majority.
I am a soft mark too, and even sometimes feel sorry for criminal. I'd be no good on a jury.

 

[weeeva]

Yes, I too have pondered and puzzled over possible scenarios and motivations. Nothing seemed to fit the known facts. Of course, it all fits perfectly now. Something that nobody in their right mind could have imagined.

Yes notsure, I could feel no joy at the verdict, but I feel justice has seen to be done.
I was demented trying to figure out how a seemingly decent man could, in a very short space of time, turn into a killer, try to involve an innocent elderly gentleman and carry on with life as normal.
Now everything has fallen into place, I feel thankful for that.

 

[Sammyme]

I wouldn't beat myself up if I were you, or if I were any of the 2 jurors.
That is why I think the jury trial is the fairest way to go.
Of course there are going to be people on a jury, with mushy hearts, and people terrified they may make a mistake. It is better to have that than to have folk who just want to get home asap, so they just go with the majority.
I am a soft mark too, and even sometimes feel sorry for criminal. I'd be no good on a jury.

Do you happen to know what ITA means in the post you were responding to?

Speaking of juries, a former lawyer said that he used to describe the jury as twelve people of average ignorance. :floorlaugh:

 

[otto]

One thing that still puzzles me about this case is why the police said that the evidence pointed to a "forensically aware criminal". He seems in fact to have done very little clearing up at the crime scene and none at all in his pcs.

Another niggle is why the police not only didn't issue a warning to other girls living in the Bristol area, but when Mrs Yeates made a statement in which she referred to the possibility of a renewed attack, the police deleted that sentence before circulating her words. What made them so sure that there wasn't going to be a second tragedy before the dénouement ?

Just to be clear, I'm not one of those who are always presuming that the police are numbskulls. There may be very good reasons for these things, but I'd like to have an idea what they are.

The thing I'd most like to know is at what point VT became, if not the prime suspect, at least a serious contender on the suspect list.

And one other thing...was VT looking at Websleuths between the crime and his arrest ? But that I feel sure we shall never be told.

I read through most of the articles yesterday and it's my understanding that VT was initially ruled out. It was when the investigation focused on the landlord that VT spoke with his girlfriend, when they were in the Netherlands, and VT mentioned that the landlord's car had been turned around at some point during the evening/night. Between VT and the girlfriend, it was decided that the information should be passed along to police. Two officers thought the information was so important that they flew to the Netherlands on NYE to meet with VT. I think I read that they interviewed him for 7 hours, and that during this time his questions, particularly regarding DNA, showed too much interest. At the end of the interview they asked him to provide a voluntary DNA sample. My impression is that if he had stayed out of the investigation, he would not have been made a suspect. That is, that phone call from the Netherlands regarding the landlord is what put the focus on him even though he had previously been ruled out.

 

[weeeva]

Kingfisher - At the very beginning of the video the man picks something up, turns around and puts it in his cart. The second he see Jo, he looks right & left, then abandons the cart & walks out of the store.

I do believe it is him. Jo sparks something in him, he recognizes her & can't continue shopping. He's in an excited state. He now knows that she didn't leave with Greg (which, IIRC, CJ encountered VT coming home on his bike & told him Greg needs jumper cables).Perhaps he's looking around the store for Greg, thinking Greg didn't leave after all. Maybe VT goes to the parking lot and waits to see if Jo comes out alone.

Seeing she is alone, he then rushes home to plan his evening.

Paulette, that part of your comment is not true. There is no evidence whatsoever that Tabak had learned from anyone that GR was gone for the weekend.
For all we know Tabak could have met Joanna as she reached home, they chatted and she innocently let slip that GR was not going to be around.
Yes the guy in the video looks like Tabak, and he appears to act suspiciously as soon as Joanna crosses his path. I can understand that you are convinced it's him------but CJ did not tell Tabak that GR was away from home.

 

[Cherwell]

My impression is that if he had stayed out of the investigation, he would not have been made a suspect. That is, that phone call from the Netherlands regarding the landlord is what put the focus on him even though he had previously been ruled out.

I don't think it's as clear-cut as that. Unless he'd had a rock-solid alibi (which it now appears he did not) I doubt that he would have been conclusively ruled out. He simply wasn't around in the early days of the investigation, having gone away for Xmas and New Year. I'm sure they would have had a closer look at him once he returned anyway.

Do you happen to know what ITA means in the post you were responding to?

I totally agree?

 

[otto]

<snip>


Maybe the police enquiries that we have got to hear about might go some way to ensuring he is kept here for a good while longer, no way does that manipulative c*** deserve a soft option and his family will just have to accept it.

My understanding is that additional investigations relate to possible crimes in other areas, specifically the Netherlands and the US. I don't see that possible crimes in those countries would be grounds to refuse a transfer to a prison in the Netherlands. VT comes from a family of well educated people that will use the law to arrange a transfer, and his mother's health gives a very strong argument for the transfer.

I was thinking yesterday about the fact that he is 10 years younger than his next sibling. He was described as a latecomer to the family. Since his mother is in her 70s, he came along when she was around the age of 40. He was described by the neighbour as a loner, an introvert and often by himself. With four older children (teenagers) when he came along, he may have been overly coddled (by three big sisters) and also somewhat neglected because of a busy household. It reminds me of Scott Peterson ... also the youngest, coddled by older siblings, a loner, neglected through his early childhood. I believe that there is a recipe for the making of people like VT that relates to early childhood.

 

[otto]

I don't think it's as clear-cut as that. Unless he'd had a rock-solid alibi (which it now appears he did not) I doubt that he would have been conclusively ruled out. He simply wasn't around in the early days of the investigation, having gone away for Xmas and New Year. I'm sure they would have had a closer look at him once he returned anyway.

I think that it was on one of the videos on the BBC (I think it was the one where the female prosecutor is giving a statement) that I heard that he was initially ruled out, but that his statement on NYE changed that. I don't have time to check it now ... but I do recall one of the investigators saying that he was ruled out.

Correction: it's here:

"Vincent Tabak, 32, who lived in the flat next to the landscape architect, was seized by police in a pre-dawn raid at a friend&#8217;s house in Clifton, Bristol, yesterday.
He had been spoken to by detectives in the very early stages of their inquiry but they had ruled him out as a suspect."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uspect-left-country-2-days-Jo-seen-alive.html

(I know it's not the more reliable of sources, but this is probably where I read it)

 

[Sammyme]

I don't think it's as clear-cut as that. Unless he'd had a rock-solid alibi (which it now appears he did not) I doubt that he would have been conclusively ruled out. He simply wasn't around in the early days of the investigation, having gone away for Xmas and New Year. I'm sure they would have had a closer look at him once he returned anyway.



I totally agree?

Thanks, Cherwell. I suppose it could be. Could be a lot of things, though.

 

[veggiefan]

If this article has any truth in it

It is from The Sun, you know!

The picture of the cushy Dutch jail is deliberately misleading. It's actually the UN Detention Centre in The Hague. Here's the source of the photo:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7521347.stm

Unless VT has also committed international war crimes, there's no chance of him being housed in a UN facility!