GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #3

[brownbread]

Hello, am new here but have been following the thread as it's such a tragic and confusing case. Firstly: my thoughts are with Jo's family and friends and I hope for a swift resolution for their sakes.

A few things I have been thinking about.

On the Friday night timeline and contact with friends:

It seems Jo had left the pub but was still keen to continue socialising. The reason she didn't just keep drinking in the pub could easily be because other colleagues were heading home themselves, she wasn't that close to the people who were there or the atmosphere wasn't great. Alternatively there could have been someone she wanted to get away from (a colleague she didn't get on with or a stranger trying to chat her up?)

We know she called her best friend and arranged to meet up on Christmas eve, but the original purpose of the call could have been to check if she was out or wanted to go for drink. As she wasn't, perhaps Jo started to go through her contacts looking for someone else who was.

It interests me that we weren't informed of the text to CAG at the outset when the LE presented other aspects of Friday night's timeline which included the call to her best friend. The CAG text has only become public indirectly via the media and the police haven't commented on it. This makes me wonder if there are other texts/phone conversations which haven't been made public either? Could there have been someone else she made contact with later on?

Moving the body:

Looking at the house, am I correct in thinking that the door to their flat was on the right hand side of the property, accessed via a narrow path? And that the main entrance and driveway was on the left hand side? And that there was no way to get a vehicle closer than perhaps 25m from their door (either out on the street or the other side of the house). This would make moving a body both strenuous and risky. Would a stranger/intruder have attempted this if they didn't need to? Or would the determination to conceal the body have been great regardless of the circumstances of the death?

 

[Phillb]

All the more reason for him to be way down Slewth's list, and mine too.
Even if there weren't this absolutely clear reason to rule out CAG there would be others. For instance, freakish killers don't *tend* to be invited out for drinks by young women. And also if, as some people crazily imagine, a man having his advances spurned leads very easily to murder, there would be thousands of killings every night in the UK.

I would tend to disagree with you about 'Freakish killers' not being invited out for drinks. Strangulation is an intimate murder, usually commited in a crime of passion or in a jealous rage by someone you know.

Peter Sutcliffe a.k.a the Yorkshire Ripper used to give the secretary where he worked lifts home (in his words...while that bloody lunatic is about) She trusted him and felt safe 100%.

Sutcliffe also changed his murder style for his last few killings. He was feeling the heat, and he wanted to make those murders look like the work of someone else. He tried strangulation with a rope from behind as a suprise attack, but he said it was far too slow, the victims put up too much of a struggle, they made too much noise, and it took too long for them to die.

So on one hand he appeared the perfect gent to many, yet he was a cold blooded brutal killing machine in reality. There are many mild mannered murderers going back through history. Reg Christie, Harold Shipman are just two. Never judge a book by it's cover!

Whoever killed Jo was definitely not a freakish oppurtune stranger I.M.O.

 

[MrZhivago]

I would tend to disagree with you about 'Freakish killers' not being invited out for drinks. Strangulation is an intimate murder, usually commited in a crime of passion or in a jealous rage by someone you know.

Peter Sutcliffe a.k.a the Yorkshire Ripper used to give the secretary where he worked lifts home (in his words...while that bloody lunatic is about) She trusted him and felt safe 100%.

Sutcliffe also changed his murder style for his last few killings. He was feeling the heat, and he wanted to make those murders look like the work of someone else. He tried strangulation with a rope from behind as a suprise attack, but he said it was far too slow, the victims put up too much of a struggle, they made too much noise, and it took too long for them to die.

So on one hand he appeared the perfect get to many, yet he was a cold blooded brutal killing machine in reality. There are many mild mannered murderers going back through history. Reg Christie, Harold Shipman are just two.

Whoever killed Jo was definitely not a freakish oppurtune killer I.M.O.

I take your point.
I also don't think she was killed by a freakish stranger. I think it was somewhat opportune, but by somebody she knew.
But, yes, I appreciate what you say about how killers can be charming and all that. So yep, my comment probably wasn't helpful.

 

[MrZhivago]

Hello, am new here but have been following the thread as it's such a tragic and confusing case. Firstly: my thoughts are with Jo's family and friends and I hope for a swift resolution for their sakes.

A few things I have been thinking about.

On the Friday night timeline and contact with friends:

It seems Jo had left the pub but was still keen to continue socialising. The reason she didn't just keep drinking in the pub could easily be because other colleagues were heading home themselves, she wasn't that close to the people who were there or the atmosphere wasn't great. Alternatively there could have been someone she wanted to get away from (a colleague she didn't get on with or a stranger trying to chat her up?)

We know she called her best friend and arranged to meet up on Christmas eve, but the original purpose of the call could have been to check if she was out or wanted to go for drink. As she wasn't, perhaps Jo started to go through her contacts looking for someone else who was.

It interests me that we weren't informed of the text to CAG at the outset when the LE presented other aspects of Friday night's timeline which included the call to her best friend. The CAG text has only become public indirectly via the media and the police haven't commented on it. This makes me wonder if there are other texts/phone conversations which haven't been made public either? Could there have been someone else she made contact with later on?

Moving the body:

Looking at the house, am I correct in thinking that the door to their flat was on the right hand side of the property, accessed via a narrow path? And that the main entrance and driveway was on the left hand side? And that there was no way to get a vehicle closer than perhaps 25m from their door (either out on the street or the other side of the house). This would make moving a body both strenuous and risky. Would a stranger/intruder have attempted this if they didn't need to? Or would the determination to conceal the body have been great regardless of the circumstances of the death?

I completely agree with all of that except some of the remarks re moving the body.
The pathway is quite covered by foliage. And note that you can get through to a parking area at the back as well as going onto street. But maybe that's what you mean by "other side". I agree that a stranger probably wouldn't move the body, although of course you're assuming she was killed there rather than, say, dragged off alive. Not that I think that's what happened. But, indeed, a stranger killing her at the flat and then removing her seems very unlikely.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

I totally agree with you Phillb on the fact that this was not a freakish opportunity.

Natural Susp. I also agree that there is something wierd going on in that area of Clifton and who knows the Web could spread wider.

I know that Hardyman is getting up there at 78 but I raise the possibility that he has some involvement.. Related to Sarah Hardyman, was he at her party the night that Glennis was murdered? Also, he is another of this group of guys whose statements appear to shield L/L.

Also another quick item. Could Peter Stanley's Jeep be described as 'light colored'. I know that in the photos we have seen of it, it is more a khaki type color, but posssibly the moon that night, other headlights in the area, the snow gave it another 'tint'?

It is also entirely possible that L/L has several sets of spare vehicle keys for friends who are away, such as the Rev. friend in S. Africa.

 

[Phillb]

Murder is easy to commit, it's disposing of the body that's the hard and risky part.

Whats the motive to move Jo's body out of her flat?

I would assume that if it was commited by a stranger they wouldn't risk trying to get rid of the body, it's far too risky, and far too much effort. A stranger would rather the body be found in the flat, that way the murder is 'commited by persons unknown'' he would be hoping it stays like that too. In his opinion there's 'plenty of other strangers' might take the blame.
The chances of getting caught trying to dispose of the body far outway those leaving the body in situ?

Someone close to Jo, or known to Jo on the other hand would be racked with the most awful guilt. By disposing of the body there trying to hide it, make the situation go away. Almost like burying their head in the sand. It doesn't help matters, but that must be the reaction to distance themselves from matters as far as poss? The list of people known to Jo dwindles down very small compared to a stranger attack. You wouldn't want to be on that list.

We all know how we felt as kids when we'd done something wrong, even if no on knew, or found out about it. Think how you felt then to gauge your guilt reaction and behaviour in this situation.

 

[MrZhivago]

I totally agree with you Phillb on the fact that this was not a freakish opportunity.

Natural Susp. I also agree that there is something wierd going on in that area of Clifton and who knows the Web could spread wider.

I know that Hardyman is getting up there at 78 but I raise the possibility that he has some involvement.. Related to Sarah Hardyman, was he at her party the night that Glennis was murdered? Also, he is another of this group of guys whose statements appear to shield L/L.

Also another quick item. Could Peter Stanley's Jeep be described as 'light colored'. I know that in the photos we have seen of it, it is more a khaki type color, but posssibly the moon that night, other headlights in the area, the snow gave it another 'tint'?

It is also entirely possible that L/L has several sets of spare vehicle keys for friends who are away, such as the Rev. friend in S. Africa.

PS's Jeep definitely isn't light-coloured as it is although I see what you mean re the possibility of snow and moonlight, but I had wondered how it might appear with a canvas over it. On balance, I think it is too distinctive, though, to be the 4x4. Without a canvas it's so skeletal as to be described more like a beach buggy or golf cart.
On the other hand, the Volvo might be viewed incorrectly as a light 4x4.
Hardyman is certainly not irrelevant, even if he wasn't active in the events of the weekend. Funny how this self-professed "light sleeper" hears nothing that night.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Jo's return to the Flat.
Something that recently crossed my mind; Did Jo possibly not hurry home because she was apprehensive about being on her own? Yes she wanted alone time to do some christmas shopping and bake, but maybe when it came down to it she was a littled spooked out. Maybe this is why she left the Pub early. She wanted to get home safely while it was still relatively early> Maybe her intuition? so she gets on the phone with her friend and then remembers her brother's friend might be available to hang out... she has felt safe with this guy in the past and if he was around he could come over for a while?


OK> this now is way off the subject but it is about intuition.
Many years ago in London my Mom and Dad lived in rooms. They were looking for a bigger place because Mom was pregnant with her second child (me).... They were looking at some postings in a public area and one particular caught their eye. A guy came up to my Dad and starting recommending the posting.. appeared he was the owner 0f the building...My Dad says that he instantly distrusted the guy and decided not to pursue these rooms. Guess what the address was? 10 Rillington Place.

 

[Slewth]

CAG 'reckons' he was asleep when she texted him on Friday night, so he couldn't get back to her in a flash. Infact he never got back to her at all, despite her not being reported missing until the Sunday night.

But he didn't even get back to her at all, even after he'd woken up. And she's only round the corner! No, he wasn't interested, full stop.

 

[Luna15]

Jo was photo-timed in one of the shops at 8.36 and didn't appear to be on the 'phone?

could have been using a 'hands free' set?

Murder is easy to commit, it's disposing of the body that's the hard and risky part.

Whats the motive to move Jo's body out of her flat?

I would assume that if it was commited by a stranger they wouldn't risk trying to get rid of the body, it's far too risky, and far too much effort. A stranger would rather the body be found in the flat, that way the murder is 'commited by persons unknown'' he would be hoping it stays like that too. In his opinion there's 'plenty of other strangers' might take the blame.
The chances of getting caught trying to dispose of the body far outway those leaving the body in situ?

Someone close to Jo, or known to Jo on the other hand would be racked with the most awful guilt. By disposing of the body there trying to hide it, make the situation go away. Almost like burying their head in the sand. It doesn't help matters, but that must be the reaction to distance themselves from matters as far as poss? The list of people known to Jo dwindles down very small compared to a stranger attack. You wouldn't want to be on that list.

We all know how we felt as kids when we'd done something wrong, even if no on knew, or found out about it. Think how you felt then to gauge your guilt reaction and behaviour in this situation.

as I feel that it could be the BF, its along those lines that I think, one of the reasons, why he moved the body; he didn't want to come back on Sunday and have to face up to what he had done...... if that makes sense?

 

[Phillb]

But he didn't even get back to her at all, even after he'd woken up. And she's only round the corner! No, he wasn't interested, full stop.

I wouldn't text anyone if i'd just murdered them i don't think. And she was a very pretty young lady, if he wasn't interested in her full stop I would question his way of thinking t.b.h.

I'm not saying it's him. But he certainly would be at the very top of my list in those circumstances. Invited for a drink by a pretty young girl, she's been drinking and boyfriends away. Flat to herself?
A young lad fast asleep on a Friday night at 8 p.m?
Huhm..

 

[Slewth]

:truce:

For me, it's a lot more than gut feeling.
There are connections with Clifton College uniting various of the players. You have the schoolmaster who lived in the building who was convicted of paedophilia. There's Stanley, a former pupil, who knew Jefferies in 1974 and is now involved with Clifton College as exams officer and shooting instructor. There is Hardyman, former master, who is apparently in bed in the top flat and who is connected through a cousin to the 1974 party and who was living just a few hundred yards from the 1974 murder. (A bit of research shows other possibly relevant people in 44 and 42, but i don't want to mention possibly peripheral people). You have the fact that the body dump site is close to Clifton College playing fields and the currently active shooting range. You've got the similar murder method. No shoes on body. Time of year. All sorts.

Yes, but this one was at home when she was murdered though. She'll have immediately taken her boots off when arriving home. And there was no obvious reason - and it would need to be fairly obvious because the murderer was probably in a confused state - for the murderer to put them back on her.

 

[brownbread]

I completely agree with all of that except some of the remarks re moving the body.
The pathway is quite covered by foliage. And note that you can get through to a parking area at the back as well as going onto street. But maybe that's what you mean by "other side". I agree that a stranger probably wouldn't move the body, although of course you're assuming she was killed there rather than, say, dragged off alive. Not that I think that's what happened. But, indeed, a stranger killing her at the flat and then removing her seems very unlikely.

Thanks for the comments. I wasn't entirely sure of the layout of the property - perhaps it wouldn't be as difficult to move the body as I thought. My thinking behind the question was that difficulty in moving the body points to a person connected to Jo rather than a stranger.

I had been thinking that Jo may have been joined by an acquaintance (or acquaintances) at the flat after she'd been texting/ringing round asking if anyone was interested in a drink. Somehow the situation got out of hand resulting in Jo's death, and the person(s) cleared up evidence that they'd been there (including disposing of the pizza wrapper). My problem with this idea is that surely phone records or knowledge of Jo's friendship groups would have made it fairly easy to establish the perpetrators. The longer the investigation goes on for, it seems less likely that there is a 'simple' explanation.

 

[mikeymot]

If he were at all interested in her, he'd have got back to her IN A FLASH. For me, he's way down the list.

Wondering if the message left on the CAGs' phone was seen by the L/E? or had he deleted it? If it had been deleted...might Jo have left a message saying she would be at the Ram 'til about 8...if he fancied joining her for a drink....then he drives down to the Ram...sees her leaving..or spots her as she is coming out of Waitrose..gives her a lift..during the journey she picks up the pizza and cider (he's not seen on any CCTV as he is outside in the car)..they go back to her flat..all goes pear-shaped and CAG kills her in an attempt to stop her screaming...takes the body to Longwood Lane..goes home, deletes the message and tells police he never got it until he woke up later?.....Just (yet another) theory!

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Wouldn't the cell phone records be able to tell when he read/deleted the text?

 

[Phillb]

Wouldn't the cell phone records be able to tell when he read/deleted the text?

Yes cell phone records capture everything, deleted or not. I'm not sure if they can tell you what time texts were read though. Whatever, the Police have been VERY quiet on that last text story so far.

 

[brownbread]

Wondering if the message left on the CAGs' phone was seen by the L/E? or had he deleted it? If it had been deleted...might Jo have left a message saying she would be at the Ram 'til about 8...if he fancied joining her for a drink....then he drives down to the Ram...sees her leaving..or spots her as she is coming out of Waitrose..gives her a lift..during the journey she picks up the pizza and cider (he's not seen on any CCTV as he is outside in the car)..they go back to her flat..all goes pear-shaped and CAG kills her in an attempt to stop her screaming...takes the body to Longwood Lane..goes home, deletes the message and tells police he never got it until he woke up later?.....Just (yet another) theory!

We know she was on the phone to her friend around the time she was buying pizza/cider - surely she wouldn't have made this call if she was in a car with someone she hadn't seen for 18 months, or if she did it'd have been obvious to her friend that she was getting a lift.

 

[mikeymot]

Jo's return to the Flat.
Something that recently crossed my mind; Did Jo possibly not hurry home because she was apprehensive about being on her own? Yes she wanted alone time to do some christmas shopping and bake, but maybe when it came down to it she was a littled spooked out. Maybe this is why she left the Pub early. She wanted to get home safely while it was still relatively early> Maybe her intuition? so she gets on the phone with her friend and then remembers her brother's friend might be available to hang out... she has felt safe with this guy in the past and if he was around he could come over for a while?


OK> this now is way off the subject but it is about intuition.
Many years ago in London my Mom and Dad lived in rooms. They were looking for a bigger place because Mom was pregnant with her second child (me).... They were looking at some postings in a public area and one particular caught their eye. A guy came up to my Dad and starting recommending the posting.. appeared he was the owner 0f the building...My Dad says that he instantly distrusted the guy and decided not to pursue these rooms. Guess what the address was? 10 Rillington Place.

Good call by your Dad.....otherwise you might not have been around to post on this site! Very spooky.

 

[ruined detroit]

The only people who would move the body, imo, are people who knew she was home alone that weekend. Otherwise you risk the spouse coming in while you are wrapping the body in a blanket. If it were me I would have moved the body.

I think there are many ways it could be done. Jo was 5'4ish and in a foetal position that is not large. A rug or a tarp or just a big coat could hide the body. It was a week before Christmas and it would barely turn an eye someone struggling with large goods as people were getting on the move etc

 

[Myserty64]

My guess is this:

Joanna gets home safely. She removes her boots, hangs up her coat and places her keys and mobile phone where she normally does.
She opens a bottle of cider, has a bit of a drink and has the pizza in hand ready for cooking.

There is a knock on the door. She answers, the killer forcefully enters, she screams and is quickly subdued and killed.

The body and pizza are taken to create confusion.
This ploy has worked.

Perhaps the murderer is known to her, perhaps he isn't. The bottom line is he is a murderer.

There is no 'one size fits all' with those who kill. In the late 1960's a serial killer known as Bible John strangled his victims. They were not crimes of passion.

The investigating team is up against it here. I just hope they have the DNA it has been reported they do. They are going to need it and a fair bit more.