GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #3

[brownbread]

If it's no longer on FB..could you cut and paste onto here..so we can have a look?

I did read it (but don't have access to it now) and if it has a genuine link to the case I'll eat my hat. I think it even started with "I KNOW WHO DID IT..."

 

[whitedove]

Lots of new people on here today, Welcome to the forum and Websleuths.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-12145602

Looks like DNA testing might go ahead in Bristol, that might make one man feel very uncomfortable.

[FONT=&quot]But the police say they received new leads after questioning people at a number of locations around Bristol on Friday night, but have not yet indicated if they are considering a mass DNA screening.[/FONT]

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Mystery 64.

Re: There is no 'one size fits all' with those who kill. In the late 1960's a serial killer known as Bible John strangled his victims. They were not crimes of passion.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this.

Is there a Psychological Profile for this kind of killer? One who does not sexually attack the victim, yet strangles them? It appears Glennis Carruthers was killed the same way. Is this the kind of person who is cruel to animals etc? If we can figure out the profile, we can maybe eliminate some of the suspects. What are the traits of this kind of killer? Are they based on Nurture or Nature?

 

[mikeymot]

I did read it (but don't have access to it now) and if it has a genuine link to the case I'll eat my hat. I think it even started with "I KNOW WHO DID IT..."

But we all know who did it.......one of the (God knows how many) suspects we have on the radar!!!!...seems to be increasing daily!

 

[Firefly75]

My thoughts are with Joanna and her family.

To me, this case smacks of what I'd call local knowledge. Someone known to Jo, if there was no sign of forced entry (or someone who got in with a key or through the window - but would she have had the time for her cider, and to kick off the boots then?). The location where the body of the poor girl was dumped - even though it appears whoever did it didn't quite manage to finish the job. Someone who knows Clifton well enough to know how to get around, and the layout of the building (or Victorian buildings of that type).

What worries me as well is the fact that another girl, Helen Van-Duivenbode, went missing a couple of days after Jo, 50 miles away from Bristol, and we hear next to nothing about it. The way Jo's murder was committed, with all the lack of evidence and unfortunate weather circumstances, and adding to that the Glenis Carruthers' murder in 1974 (chilling similarities), and some hints at other missing cases, if it is a serial killer on the prowl, Helen could well have been the next victim.

Link to a short article about Helen: http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/221653/Fears-growing-for-missing-Helen-28

 

[MMENJBRIT]

How the victim became dissoriented?

Could be the case with Glennis and Joanna that some kind of liquid was poured onto a tissue /paper towell and shoved over their nose.. it may be enough to make them 'out of it' but follow instructions such as 'walk this way' (hushed tones) the person blindly obeys until they reach a solitary location/waiting vehicle with the perp?

 

[whitedove]

How the victim became dissoriented?

Could be the case with Glennis and Joanna that some kind of liquid was poured onto a tissue /paper towell and shoved over their nose.. it may be enough to make them 'out of it' but follow instructions such as 'walk this way' (hushed tones) the person blindly obeys until they reach a solitary location/waiting vehicle with the perp?

I think you have a good idea there MMENJBRIT, I wondered why there was no marks, and no sign of a struggle, and reading a little about what her brother said, and also his partner, she says.

[FONT=&quot]Jo's body looked very peaceful as if she was just sleeping and was about to open her eyes but breath was no longer there. Chris and Jo have similar features and at that point it seemed as if I was standing between representations of both life and death.[/FONT]

Link to statement from Jo's brother.
http://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/LocalPages/NewsDetails.aspx?nsid=22383&t=1&lid=1

 

[wfgodot]

And the Independent weighs in with....

Are the Joanna detectives without a clue?

snippets:

A spokesman for Avon and Somerset Constabulary claimed that the case had been given the highest priority from the start: "It was designated as a high-risk missing person case immediately. We treat high-risk missing person cases the same way we would do a murder investigation. The full resources of the force were applied and the major incident room was set-up the day after."

The police continue to face questions about how the investigation has been carried out. Drains outside Ms Yeates's home and bushes on the other side of her garden wall were searched only last Thursday, and there have been claims – denied by police – that CCTV footage from privately owned cameras may have been deleted before officers had time to check them.

Detectives still do not know where and when she died, and waited 10 days after her body was found before putting an appeal on Facebook to prompt more witnesses to come forward.

While the murder of Joanna Yeates has captured media attention, there are several other women who have gone missing since December and whose whereabouts remain a mystery. Nasim Akhtar, a 41-year-old mother of six from Birmingham, has not been seen since 23 December; Helen Van Duivenbode, 28, from Dorset, has been missing since 20 December; Marian Brailey-Tucker, 50, went missing from the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend on Christmas Eve; and Deborah Anne Pearson, 43, a mother of four from Cumbria, has not been seen since she left her home in Thornthwaite near Keswick on 21 December.

much more at
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/are-the-joanna-detectives-without-a-clue-2179743.html

 

[Firefly75]

Other things that bug me, many if not all of which have been mentioned already:
*Would a perp unknown to Jo really move the body?
*How would he get in, unless she opened the door to him herself? Also, would the perp have had to go through any other door or hall?
*How early do people go to bed in Bristol?!? In case of illness, I can rather believe it, to a degree.
*Re. Glenis Carruthers murder in 1974: is there anyone who would fit the description of her killer that whose age and description fit loosely to someone who is still around today? "Fit loosely' because it's very easy to misjudge the height or age of people. Especially in the dark, from a distance, etc.
*What state was Jo's other sock in? If she'd gone out in her socked feet (which I find hard to believe - after dark, it could have been wet, muddy, you name it, not to mention freezing cold), the other sock would probably show it. Did Jo have slippers? Are any footwear, hers or BF's, missing from the flat?
*Contamination of the murder/abduction scene. I know BF didn't do it deliberately, but what exactly was it like when he came back, and waited hours before raising alarm?
*If Jo's parents knew within 30 minutes of entering the flat that she didn't go of her own free will, how come the BF, who lived with her, waited for hours before panicking?
*Was the cat starving, traumatized, soiling everywhere? If starving, wouldn't he have miaowed loudly - did the neighbours hear anything? Where was the cat? Does he use a litter tray or does it go out - if so, is there a catflap, does he go through a window, does he miaow to have the door opened? Was LL ok about them having a cat (some of them don't allow pets)?
* Was the door locked when the last person to leave the flat left, ditto all the windows? Was it open/on latch when BF came back? Were any windows open?
*Was there any indication that Jo did pick up her post? Might BF had done it before he left?
*Was Jo an early-to-bed girl? Or would she have gone on to meet someone else? Or arrange with them to meet?
*Phone call to best friend: if she phoned her at 8.30 and they were on the phone for 15 min or so, how come Jo is seen on CCTV without the phone, and doesn't appear to be talking either?
*Was Jo vegetarian, did she like that type of pizza enough to have it when by herself, or even enough to finish the left-overs the next day? Or could she considerately have bought that type of pizza to please someone else?
Was there any indication that she was about to eat?

I hope this doesn't turn into a cold case.

 

[jigzy]

I too read the 'Debbie' discussion on DS. She said that she knew who had done it and said it was a couple (man and woman) or 2 men, one of whom dressed up as a woman and had an 'alter ego'. I took her post with a pinch of salt as it all seemed to be speculation and typed in capitals for extra sensationalism, imo.
Laurence Penney once Twittered jokingly about his alter ego not being Penny Laurence or something like that (easily googled), so in my mind 'Debbie' is an amateur sleuth who has search LP and come up with a theory involving him and another possibly PS. That's just my own opinion.

Mods, pls remove this post if it's off topic or inappropriate.



Please note: When I typed imo, I meant that this is my interpretation of what Debbie posted, not that I share her views or that I think anyone we have heard of so far in this case is a transvestite.

 

[wfgodot]

Excellent questions Firefly75, and welcome to WebSleuths by the way.

Thanks jigzy for the summary of the 'Debbie' discussion. Excellent surmise as well.

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm looking for some more concrete information and as we some very competent information hunters here, notably Phillb and MrZhivago, maybe I shall be in luck.

I want to have a clear picture of the interior layout of the building in which the flat is situated and, preferably, of the flat itself. Obviously the house was once a single residence with the servants' quarters in the basement, the main entrance where it still is, and perhaps a tradesmens' entrance to the rear. But I don't know, for instance, if the door carried off by the police now leads directly into Joanna's flat or into a passage also leading to the other basement flat. Obviously when the servants were in the basement they had an internal staircase leading up the main parts of the building - is that still there and accessible ? In other words, can another resident reach J + G's flat without going outside (and if not what modification has occurred to the original staircase ) ?

I'd also like some more information about Peter Stanley, who originally looked to me about the only normal bloke around there (but I am impressed by some of MrZhiv's data). Is he another batchelor ? What is the source for his being a Clifton College shoting instructor ?

While I'm here, two further thoughts :

1. If Joanna texts an old acquaintance whom she hasn't seen for a long time and fails to raise a reply, she is unlikely to stop there, whether she is hoping for a fling or just company. After getting home, she would call others, until she struck gold. Perhaps she did and we haven't yet been told. Or perhaps she was interrupted before she could do so.

2. Given the big deal made by the police about the delays caused by the frozen state of the body, I wonder if the body might have been provisionally stored in a freezer. Granted the outdoor temperatures were most of the time freezing, but a freezer would produce a much more lasting effect and it is a fairly discreet place in which to keep an unwanted corpse.

 

[Firefly75]

Thank you for the welcome, Wfgodot.

2. Given the big deal made by the police about the delays caused by the frozen state of the body, I wonder if the body might have been provisionally stored in a freezer. Granted the outdoor temperatures were most of the time freezing, but a freezer would produce a much more lasting effect and it is a fairly discreet place in which to keep an unwanted corpse.

Very very relevant! Presuming she was murdered in her flat soon after she got home from the pub, and somebody removed the body, it must have been stored somewhere until it was dumped. I find it hard to believe that her body would have been dumped days before she was found, on account of the dog walkers and dogs. Cold garage perhaps, with concrete walls and floors, which would presumably have been almost as cold as outside? A big freezer, as Nausicaa suggests? Someone's garden, under, say tarpaulin, or in a garden house, shed, whatever people have in their gardens there? Car boot - but how would this have affected rigor mortis (and not to mention that her DNA would be all over the place)? Balcony? Someone else's (ie. perp's) flat?
I wonder if they used cadaver dogs.

The poor girl.

And yes, how did the perp overpower her - surprise, drugged drink, something on a piece of cloth that would have knocked her out, did she fall asleep at some point before it happened? I wonder if there was any indication of ligature like, say, rope etc., or any signs that she tried to prevent it from strangling her.

 

[laurauk1]

Hi all, My laptop charger broke yesterday so no chance for sleuthing. It looks like I've got a lot of catching up to do! Luckily BF has fixed the charger so Im going to spend the next hour or so catching up before dinner.

 

[brownbread]

*If Jo's parents knew within 30 minutes of entering the flat that she didn't go of her own free will, how come the BF, who lived with her, waited for hours before panicking?

Lots of good questions - but this one in particular I don't think is a cause for concern (and I'm sure has been much discussed already so sorry for possibly repeating what has been said before).

I think it's perfectly understandable that BF's concern escalated over a period of time. He may well have been feeling extremely uneasy for a while before reaching the stage of calling the police. We don't know his exact actions over this period. My understanding is that it was when he checked her bag and realised her keys, phone and purse were still in the flat he realised something must have been seriously wrong.

Whereas for her parents, arriving after it was known she had been missing for hours and the police were already involved, they were looking at the situation through different eyes. They would also have been aware from the outset that her keys/phone/purse were in the flat.

In fact, my interpretation of the parents comments about knowing within 30 mins that she had been abducted is that they were talking about her keys etc still being the flat, not referring to some other details that aren't public. I know they said there were 'things about the flat the police had told them not to discuss' but perhaps they were just being cautious about what they said - you can read too much into the words of people who are likely to be both totally overwhelmed and utterly distraught.

Many people have assumed there's other significant details about the flat which alerted the parents - but my interpretation is that the presence of the keys etc was what had them convinced. Nobody is out after midnight on a Sunday night without so much as their housekeys.

 

[Luna15]

I want to have a clear picture of the interior layout of the building in which the flat is situated and, preferably, of the flat itself. Obviously the house was once a single residence with the servants' quarters in the basement, the main entrance where it still is, and perhaps a tradesmens' entrance to the rear. But I don't know, for instance, if the door carried off by the police now leads directly into Joanna's flat or into a passage also leading to the other basement flat. Obviously when the servants were in the basement they had an internal staircase leading up the main parts of the building - is that still there and accessible ? In other words, can another resident reach J + G's flat without going outside (and if not what modification has occurred to the original staircase ) ?

Sorry I cant copy/paste the relevant parts in this article but have a look through this, it mentions that Joanna would have to have climbed stairs from her apartment to get to her front door, also mentions all other residents (including other basement I presume?) used the communal entrance.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1344610/Joanna-Yeates-snatched-killer-went-check-post.html

 

[Robin Hood]

I did read it (but don't have access to it now) and if it has a genuine link to the case I'll eat my hat. I think it even started with "I KNOW WHO DID IT..."

It has disappeared completely from everywhere so it can't be pasted, sorry.

 

[jigzy]

I'm looking for some more concrete information and as we some very competent information hunters here, notably Phillb and MrZhivago, maybe I shall be in luck.

I want to have a clear picture of the interior layout of the building in which the flat is situated and, preferably, of the flat itself. Obviously the house was once a single residence with the servants' quarters in the basement, the main entrance where it still is, and perhaps a tradesmens' entrance to the rear. But I don't know, for instance, if the door carried off by the police now leads directly into Joanna's flat or into a passage also leading to the other basement flat. Obviously when the servants were in the basement they had an internal staircase leading up the main parts of the building - is that still there and accessible ? In other words, can another resident reach J + G's flat without going outside (and if not what modification has occurred to the original staircase ) ?

I'd also like some more information about Peter Stanley, who originally looked to me about the only normal bloke around there (but I am impressed by some of MrZhiv's data). Is he another batchelor ? What is the source for his being a Clifton College shoting instructor ?

While I'm here, two further thoughts :

1. If Joanna texts an old acquaintance whom she hasn't seen for a long time and fails to raise a reply, she is unlikely to stop there, whether she is hoping for a fling or just company. After getting home, she would call others, until she struck gold. Perhaps she did and we haven't yet been told. Or perhaps she was interrupted before she could do so.

2. Given the big deal made by the police about the delays caused by the frozen state of the body, I wonder if the body might have been provisionally stored in a freezer. Granted the outdoor temperatures were most of the time freezing, but a freezer would produce a much more lasting effect and it is a fairly discreet place in which to keep an unwanted corpse.

I'm not certain that basements were used as servants' quarters. Usually servants lived at the top of the house or in rooms with smaller, less ornate windows, with a staircase at the rear of the property. I would imagine that the kitchens were in the basement with drawing rooms, dining room, and reception rooms on the floor above. I think the side entrance which is now JY's apartment entrance was the tradesman's entrance with access to kitchens and cellar. jmo.

 

[liz b.]

The supposed lack of sexual assault is puzzling. Also the mode of killing. There seems to be no mutilation,or sadisitic underpinnings to this murder.

I was a bit perplexed to learn ( late in the info leak process ) that Jo had texted another guy. And someone she hadn't seen since she had been with Greg.On the very night that Greg went out of town... But, it could be that this was just 20 something stuff. Relationship modes are very different now than they used to be..

If she wasn't killed in the flat,and there was no sexual assault, and there were no obvious signs of ritualistic torture/ sadistic behavior, the question is why was she removed from the flat ? One possibility is that this was a botched kidnapping. Perhaps directed at her parents.

All JMO

 

[Phillb]

The 1884 map of Canynge Road is in superb detail, sadly the ground floor plans of the individual houses aren't diagrammed. Jo's flat is marked with an X. it's interesting to see that all the house are named apart from C.J's and P.S's next door. I'm not sure what the small connecting? outbuilding at the end of the house is, more than likely a coal store perhaps. There still is a building down there from the media photos i've seen.

And some aerial images for possible back garden routes.