GUILTY UK - Katie Rough, 7, killed by teen, Woodthorpe, York, 10 Jan 2017

[Elainera]

Bringing Bessie's post forward. I wanted to bold the most important sentence - but they are all important! Please read!

The thread is open again for posting.

DO NOT sleuth and stalk family and friends in social media, and then talk about it here. What you tead on FB, remains on FB

Remember that the accused is a minor. Post with caution. Any and all allegations MUST be supported by a link to a legitimate news (MSM), or law enforcement source.

Again, individuals other than the accused are OFF LIMITS. No speculation. No FB stalking.

Suggested reading:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2279603

 

[Elainera]

Is the photo of the 15 year old that is being discussed in MSM? Or is it just on FB? I have only seen it unedited on FB and that is off limits is it not?

Yes you're right, it's totally off limits. To make it very simple for newcomers: DO NOT talk about what you saw on Facebook and other sm at all! We want to keep this thread open, do we not.

Given that the topic of ‘who is the accused’ is off limits, the motives are also, so I’d like to try to get known events straight without discussing who or why, can you help with this?

The police are covering a broad period of 3-5pm for witnesses. The 999 call at about 4:50 pm from Katie’s mum suggested Katie was last seen around 4 pm. The crime scene is about 10-15 mins walk from where Katie lives and the roads listed by police in the witness appeal are all on the most direct route to the crime scene from Katie's home. The route does not pass the nearest school so I assume Katie left her home around 4 pm and I guess she arrived at the field around 4:15 pm.

The events are totally unknown between arriving at the field until 4:37 pm when the first 999 call was made, supposedly by the accused. The events that resulted in Katie’s injuries and death occurred during those the approx. 20 mins. Nothing is known of this time period.

In the time around 4:30 pm – 5:00 pm it seems a dog walker may have discovered Katie, neighbours assisted, then the police, the mother, ambulance crews and father turn up at the scene before she was taken to the hospital.

It is possible Katie received her injuries in a different place to where she was found but it sounds like that wouldn't have been more than a minute away given the severity.

I speculate that the accused had a weapon that seems to have been taken to the crime scene. Being at the crime scene, a dark pathway and unlit field just after sunset would be odd without say walking a dog or having another reason to be there. There are shops in the opposite direction about the same distance, going to the field at that time seems to indicate some forward planning of events.

Can anyone help refute, elaborate or correct all the assumptions I made above based on what I have read in this thread and MSM?

I did think about that and came up with a scenario where the knife was already in the accused hands for another reason, I often smuggled a knife out of the house to build a den with my friends. But I was a boy doing boys stuff and it was always daylight.

My guess is that she was assaulted where she was found or somewhere further into the dark field and maybe ran towards the path and fell where she was found. In both cases Katie is in an unusual location for a 7 year old given the time / sunset etc even if she went there willingilngly. It is probably the nearest place from Katies home with some privacy to commit a crime like that.

Good observations tallmansix! Yes Katie being at that place in the dark (or dusk) could point to premeditation. It does look like she was lured there. jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

It is a bit, except that people find real things, not imaginary ones. Typically a plastic box with some small toys or nicknacks in. If you take something out, you are expected to leave something in its place.

I did explain in my original post which was removed. Just go to geocaching, and you can search the site for caches in any area.
Mostly they are just found by using GPS and then searching, but for some you need to solve puzzles to get the coordinates. It is popular with families as it is something the whole family can do together and get out and about.

Yes, it's a fun thing to do - and it's real, not imaginary. I knew about it here in USA, but didn't know it was also something that is also very currently active in England.

 

[Milliamh]

First post here so hi

Is it unreasonable to assume that maybe the 15 year old had a much younger mental age and that maybe while playing <modsnip> had found a discarded knife and used it in play without realising the consequences? Would explain why the girl was so guilt ridde/distraught and stayed at the scene?

 

[Spellbound]

Welcome here , Milliamh!

Anything is possible, though I just don't see it the way you described. I really have no clue yet.

 

[Elainera]

First post here so hi

Is it unreasonable to assume that maybe the 15 year old had a much younger mental age and that maybe while playing <modsnip> had found a discarded knife and used it in play without realising the consequences? Would explain why the girl was so guilt ridde/distraught and stayed at the scene?

Was she guilt riddled?

 

[katydid23]

First post here so hi

Is it unreasonable to assume that maybe the 15 year old had a much younger mental age and that maybe while playing <modsnip> had found a discarded knife and used it in play without realising the consequences? Would explain why the girl was so guilt ridde/distraught and stayed at the scene?

I don't think so, because it was reported that the deceased had been stabbed in the chest and slashed o the throat. I don't think one can do that without realizing the consequences. JMO

But, good 1st post and :welcome: to WS

 

[mrazda71]

First post here so hi

Is it unreasonable to assume that maybe the 15 year old had a much younger mental age and that maybe while playing <modsnip> had found a discarded knife and used it in play without realising the consequences? Would explain why the girl was so guilt ridde/distraught and stayed at the scene?

Welcome

I've been a member for a few years and I must warn you, cases where the accused is a minor are the most frustrating because we learn pretty much nothing until at least the trial and even then sometimes we don't learn much more!

Great first post and it's good to hear a theory we haven't had mentioned yet.

Personally - I'm not even attempting to guess on what happened, how it happened, why it happened ... sometimes when you follow a case, it turns out to be a completely different story to any bandied around here.

I do think it's somewhat unusual for the 'perp' to stick around ... and to be 'in a distressed state' especially in a pre planned attack - escape and evasion is usually part of the plan.

 

[tallmansix]

I think it is relevant that the family were into geocaching. Someone could have said to Katie, "Come with me and I'll show you a really good cache with lots of swaps in it," and I bet she would have happily gone along.

Just theorising.

Despite my earlier posts I do now agree with you, gives credence to the victim / accused being at or around the location at that time and suggests familiarity with the area. It also gives a compelling lure to the area as well.

Interestingly the shortest route from Katie's home to the crime scene is via a woodland path and across the field. It seems unlikely that she entered via the entrance where she was found.

 

[Elainera]

I wonder where Katie met the girl. Katie's mother reported her missing saying she had not seen Katie for 45 minutes, which sounds to me that mum thought Katie left the home by herself.

I also wonder whether the teenage girl was the only assailant. She might be covering for someone she's in love with. I hope this doesn't turn out to be a Ken and Barbie style murder.

 

[mrazda71]

I wonder where Katie met the girl. Katie's mother reported her missing saying she had not seen Katie for 45 minutes, which sounds to me that mum thought Katie left the home by herself.

I also wonder whether the teenage girl was the only assailant. She might be covering for someone she's in love with. I hope this doesn't turn out to be a Ken and Barbie style murder.

What can be reported by press is VERY restricted. We've seen already that, the press initially reported some facts which were then edited and removed because the accused is only 15.

It IS possible that the mum knew that Katie was with girl15 and that perhaps they both left the house together without mums approval, it could be that Katie was playing in the garden and disappeared from there. It could be that Katie was allowed further away from home and met with girl15 elsewhere ... we just don't know.

I dont believe anyone else was involved at all.

 

[Elainera]

I think if mum knew Katie was with the teenage girl she wouldn't have called police and reported her missing.

 

[tallmansix]

I think if mum knew Katie was with the teenage girl she wouldn't have called police and reported her missing.

I was thinking about what triggered her mum to call the police if she knew she was with the teenager and came up with: unexpectedly missing from the house, unusually late back, uncontactable or some other information had been received to cause concern.

It is likely the teenager had a mobile phone with them (possibly even Katie) at the time and I would expect that a call would have been made to the mobile prior to calling the police. The result of that call probably led to the phone call to report her missing either because it went unanswered or was answered and some information to suggest she was missing or hurt was given without a location.

 

[Elainera]

Yes tallmansix, that is also possible.

 

[mrazda71]

I was thinking about what triggered her mum to call the police if she knew she was with the teenager and came up with: unexpectedly missing from the house, unusually late back, uncontactable or some other information had been received to cause concern.

It is likely the teenager had a mobile phone with them (possibly even Katie) at the time and I would expect that a call would have been made to the mobile prior to calling the police. The result of that call probably led to the phone call to report her missing either because it went unanswered or was answered and some information to suggest she was missing or hurt was given without a location.

Exactly my thoughts

 

[RocketFuel]

any know if there's any particular reason someone might appear via video link?

A lot of Defendants appear via video link for the first hearing at crown court if they have been remanded into custody. It's easier for them to just go to the video link room at the prison rather than be transported.

The first hearing at crown court is called Plea and Trial Preparation Hearing (PTPH) and basically the Defendant confirms their name and, if they are deemed able, indicates a guilty/not guilty plea. The rest of the hearing is just setting timescales and legal stuff. The Defendant doesn't really say much more after that. Most of the ones I've been in are very short.

If the Defendant has been remanded then they don't usually come to Crown Court until the trial. Their meeting with the barrister prior to PTPH is done via video link too.

Hope this helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mrazda71]

A lot of Defendants appear via video link for the first hearing at crown court if they have been remanded into custody. It's easier for them to just go to the video link room at the prison rather than be transported.

The first hearing at crown court is called Plea and Trial Preparation Hearing (PTPH) and basically the Defendant confirms their name and, if they are deemed able, indicates a guilty/not guilty plea. The rest of the hearing is just setting timescales and legal stuff. The Defendant doesn't really say much more after that. Most of the ones I've been in are very short.

IF THE DEFENDANT HAS BEEN REMANDED THEN THEY DON'T USUALLY COME TO CROWN COURT UNTIL THE TRIAL. Their meeting with the barrister prior to PTPH is done via video link too.

Hope this helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great post thanks.

Re bolded - Unless the accused pleads guilty I assume? Then there'd be no trial?

 

[Cherwell]

No trial if there is a guilty plea, just hearings re sentencing.

 

[RocketFuel]

Yes. No trial if guilty plea - case is adjourned for sentencing... unless it's straightforward enough to sentence then.

Re caps and gowns - these are often removed for minors. Even Defendants. It helps them get the best evidence. We have to remember, innocent until proven guilty and she still deserves the correct treatment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rosegold68]

There's a balloon release tomorrow for what would have been Katie's 8th birthday. Heartbreaking

Archbishop of York has spent some time with the family. Hope it brought them at least a glimmer of comfort