GUILTY UK - Kempsey, found in a septic tank, Jul'19, missing in 1982 - Brenda Venables *husband arrested*

[Tortoise]

Venables also told jurors he never mentioned the septic tank to police search teams as it “never entered” his mind.

But he also claimed to have twice seen police searching the tank, which others have described as being located in “rough and wild” ground in the garden, a few dozen yards from the farmhouse’s back door.

Venables said sight of the tank was “virtually clear” from the Malverns-side of the house, and that on one occasion he “saw a policeman with a rod, prodding the tank”, several weeks after Mrs Venables went missing.

Venables said: “I saw him actually searching it.

“The policeman came to the door, said ‘I’ve searched the tank and I’m quite satisfied there’s nothing in there – but unfortunately I’ve dropped the lid in there’.”

Venables said he then replaced the access cover with a “paving slab” for safety, as there was a public footpath within a few feet of the tank, also adding “if it’s not sealed, you get a smell coming out of it”.

Farmer accused of murdering wife in 1982 ‘not one to show emotion’, jury told

 

[ZaZara]

“The policeman came to the door, said ‘I’ve searched the tank and I’m quite satisfied there’s nothing in there – but unfortunately I’ve dropped the lid in there’.”



Farmer accused of murdering wife in 1982 ‘not one to show emotion’, jury told

SBM

I wish I hadn't read this. Now I keep on wondering how someone could drop the lid into the opening of the tank. The lid should be wider on all sides. Maybe one can slide it into the opening if the lid is rectangular and has been rotated 90 degrees, but an unfortunate drop is hardly possible. Like dropping the plug down the drain or the cork into the bottle. Oops! But no.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

SBM

I wish I hadn't read this. Now I keep on wondering how someone could drop the lid into the opening of the tank. The lid should be wider on all sides. Maybe one can slide it into the opening if the lid is rectangular and has been rotated 90 degrees, but an unfortunate drop is hardly possible. Like dropping the plug down the drain or the cork into the bottle. Oops! But no.

Have you never dropped the cork into a bottle? It's most frustrating as it stops the flow of Malbec, or whatever is your preferred vino

It's a clever strategy though, relying on the quality of police search records from years ago. Search records these days are detailed and difficult or hazardous areas are identified and specialist teams are deployed,e.g. steep ground/working at height (rope team), hazmat team, underwater search team, confined space team etc.

 

[Tortoise]

If he saw the search dogs he might have panicked and placed a slab on top so that they wouldn't detect Brenda's scent on it, and put the lid in the septic tank to explain why there was a slab, if asked.

 

[Tortoise]

Mr Hannam asked Venables: “Did you kill your wife?”

Venables said: “No.”

“Did you put her body in the septic tank,” he was then asked.

“Never,” said Venables.

Farmer accused of murdering wife in 1982 ‘not one to show emotion’, jury told

 

[Whitehall 1212]

If he saw the search dogs he might have panicked and placed a slab on top so that they wouldn't detect Brenda's scent on it, and put the lid in the septic tank to explain why there was a slab, if asked.

I'm not a search dog expert, although I've worked operationally with police and Mountain Rescue dogs. Dogs are trained for specific tasks. I'm not sure that any UK police services maintain cadaver trained dogs now, let alone in 1982. Specialist private companies are brought in if necessary.

General purposes dogs, generally German Shepherds will generally pick up the strongest i.e. most recent scent and track it.

If police officers called to an area where a suspect has been, e.g. decamp from stolen motor vehicle, run from the scene of a burglary and they lose the suspect at any point and the dog van is close by, they should avoid venturing further but collectively put in a perimeter cordon if possible, and indicate the place the suspect was last seen for the handler. The dog will track from here.

If the suspects scent has not been contaminated by the scent of others, including police officers (although this sometimes needs explaining....P.C. to handler "the dog has seen me and has my scent, he/she knows I am a bobbie" ) ,then the dog will track the scent. This obviously works well at night and the more rural the better, too many folk wandering about and the scent will be mixed with others and the dog will likely lose the track.

Non cadaver trained dogs I feel sure will NOT indicate human remains nearly forty years old. I suspect if just bones then even a cadaver may not indicate.

If it's a search in a septic tank then I would think that a camera and good lights/infra red or a corpse detection system may be more suited, although I suspect will have to go in a check for certain.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not a search dog expert, although I've worked operationally with police and Mountain Rescue dogs. Dogs are trained for specific tasks. I'm not sure that any UK police services maintain cadaver trained dogs now, let alone in 1982. Specialist private companies are brought in if necessary.

General purposes dogs, generally German Shepherds will generally pick up the strongest i.e. most recent scent and track it.

If police officers called to an area where a suspect has been, e.g. decamp from stolen motor vehicle, run from the scene of a burglary and they lose the suspect at any point and the dog van is close by, they should avoid venturing further but collectively put in a perimeter cordon if possible, and indicate the place the suspect was last seen for the handler. The dog will track from here.

If the suspects scent has not been contaminated by the scent of others, including police officers (although this sometimes needs explaining....P.C. to handler "the dog has seen me and has my scent, he/she knows I am a bobbie" ) ,then the dog will track the scent. This obviously works well at night and the more rural the better, too many folk wandering about and the scent will be mixed with others and the dog will likely lose the track.

Non cadaver trained dogs I feel sure will NOT indicate human remains nearly forty years old. I suspect if just bones then even a cadaver may not indicate.

If it's a search in a septic tank then I would think that a camera and good lights/infra red or a corpse detection system may be more suited, although I suspect will have to go in a check for certain.

You may have misunderstood me. I was referring to the search for Brenda with dogs in the days after her disappearance, not specifically cadaver dogs, or 40 years later, or inside the tank.

"Police officers involved in the “high-profile” search for Mrs Venables after she disappeared in May 1982, described how dogs, boats and a helicopter were used to scour local waterways, fields, woodland and farm outbuildings."

Septic tank where wife’s body found ‘not searched’ in 1982, murder jury told

 

[Whitehall 1212]

You may have misunderstood me. I was referring to the search for Brenda with dogs in the days after her disappearance, not specifically cadaver dogs, or 40 years later, or inside the tank.

"Police officers involved in the “high-profile” search for Mrs Venables after she disappeared in May 1982, described how dogs, boats and a helicopter were used to scour local waterways, fields, woodland and farm outbuildings."

Septic tank where wife’s body found ‘not searched’ in 1982, murder jury told

Doh Am I forgiven for being a numpty? I need a holiday. Anyway, I hope the extraneous info entertained someone

 

[Tortoise]

Doh Am I forgiven for being a numpty? I need a holiday. Anyway, I hope the extraneous info entertained someone

a numpty you're not, thanks for your useful input here.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

a numpty you're not, thanks for your useful input here.

Too kind. Thank you @Tortoise

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Jury told of claim Fred West ‘responsible’ for death of wife found in cesspit

On Friday, the jury heard accounts of the police’s interviews with Venables, after he was arrested in 2019 on suspicion of murdering his wife, nearly 40 years after she vanished.


“One thing did happen,” Venables told police.


“A lady rang me up – I vaguely knew her, actually, she used to keep house with a friend I knew – she said Fred West picked her up in Worcester at a bus stop early one morning, and she managed to escape.


“I wondered since whether he was responsible for picking her (Mrs Venables) up and eventually disposing of her body.”


The police then asked Venables: “Who was that lady (who rang you)?”


“I can’t tell you, I can’t even remember what her name was,” said Venables.


“The friend she kept house with died three to four years ago.”

He also told officers his wife had been “depressed” at the couple being unable to have children, but that she appeared “normal” on the night of May 3, 1982, when he has claimed she vanished.


Venables, then 49, said the couple had watched a report about the Falklands War on the television news, and his wife had been playing with the couple’s new West Highland terrier.

He claimed to have last seen his wife of 22 years “in bed”, after she had changed into her nightdress.


“When I woke the next morning she wasn’t in bed.


“I went to look and she had just disappeared.”


Venables was asked by interviewing officers about any personal effects she had left behind, with him recalling she had removed her engagement ring – and placed it on the bedside table.

Asked where it now was, Venables said: “I gave it to Mrs Morgan’s daughter, probably three to four years ago.


“Mr and Mrs Morgan – I went to school with her father – so I thought, just let her have it.


“They were good friends.”


“The ring wasn’t valuable,” he added, although he “didn’t know” how much the band, made of gold with a diamond, had cost, though Venables had recalled the couple had gone “together to buy it”.


The interviewing officer then asked: “Why would you give a ring away which had so much sentimental value – your wife had gone missing and you gave her ring away?”


Venables replied: “Well it (the disappearance) was over 30 years ago.


“I thought about selling it, but didn’t.”


BBM



One wonders what Mrs Morgan's daughter thought of that ring at the time and what she is thinking now....

In 2019 we were discussing what he may have kept all these years, but tried to discard once her remains were found. My first guess was her ring, or something very personal she wouldn’t have left the house without wearing or carrying with her. (I think a few of us had the same idea).

GUILTY - UK - Kempsey, found in a septic tank, Jul'19, missing in 1982 - Brenda Venables *husband arrested*

I wonder if the bones still had a wedding and/or engagement ring on them?

www.websleuths.com

Once they discovered her he realized it wouldn’t make sense that her ring wasn’t there with her, (imo).

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder why there was no reporting from the trial yesterday. Lawpages shows he was on the stand all day. It doesn't say whether he was being cross-examined by the prosecution, or still being questioned by his own barrister but I suspect it was the prosecution. How disappointing!

yesterday's info - https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/crown-court-daily/76/lists/2022-07-04

Worcester Crown Court​	3​	T20217099​	David Venables​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:40 Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 16 Continues - 10:43 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 11:45 - 11:25 Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 11:49 Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 16 Continues - 12:01 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 13:30 - 12:31 Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 16 Continues - 13:33 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 14:35 - 14:17 Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 16 Continues - 14:37 Trial (Part Heard) - No Event - 15:02 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 15:45 - 15:27 Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 15:45 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 10:40 - 16:03

 

[Tortoise]

Summing up already.

https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Worcester-Crown-Court.php

​

Worcester Crown Court​	3​	T20217099​	David Venables​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:40 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 11:45 - 10:46 Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 12:35 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 14:00 - 12:57 Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 14:11 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 15:00 - 14:45 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 15:11 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 15:00 - 14:45 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 15:11 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 10:40 - 16:04

Let's hope the papers show up for the verdict..

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Venables also told jurors he never mentioned the septic tank to police search teams as it “never entered” his mind.

But he also claimed to have twice seen police searching the tank, which others have described as being located in “rough and wild” ground in the garden, a few dozen yards from the farmhouse’s back door.

Venables said sight of the tank was “virtually clear” from the Malverns-side of the house, and that on one occasion he “saw a policeman with a rod, prodding the tank”, several weeks after Mrs Venables went missing.

Venables said: “I saw him actually searching it.

“The policeman came to the door, said ‘I’ve searched the tank and I’m quite satisfied there’s nothing in there – but unfortunately I’ve dropped the lid in there’.”

Venables said he then replaced the access cover with a “paving slab” for safety, as there was a public footpath within a few feet of the tank, also adding “if it’s not sealed, you get a smell coming out of it”.

Farmer accused of murdering wife in 1982 ‘not one to show emotion’, jury told

No record of officers originally searching the tank from what I’ve read. (And not something an untrained person would do, imo).

“Retired West Mercia Police constable Peter Sharrock was among the search teams but told how the septic tank was apparently overlooked.

He told the court on Thursday: ‘I certainly never took part in searching the septic tank. I walked past it to get to the river area for searches. Nobody mentioned searching the tank.’”

Septic tank where woman's body found ‘not searched’ in 1982,

During the trial over pig farmer David Venables' alleged murder, Worcester Crown Court heard how close police officers were to the body.

metro.co.uk

I’m guessing he may have used the concrete lid to weigh her body down and then replaced it with the slab, imo.*

* I don’t know if they found the original lid down there.

 

[Alyce]

Worcester Crown Court​	3​	T20217099​	david venables​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:41 Trial (Part Heard) - Prosecution Closing Speech - 10:42 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 12:00 - 11:39 Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 12:00 Trial (Part Heard) - Prosecution Closing Speech - 12:04

 

[Alyce]

The lack of reporting is so frustrating. Hope we at least get Judge's sentencing remarks - if guilty of course.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Jurors at Worcester Crown Court have already heard details of Venables’ “on-off” 14-year affair with now-dead mother-of-three Lorraine Styles, including how he visited his mistress to have sex just days after his wife vanished.


Police officers involved in the “high-profile” search for Mrs Venables after she disappeared in May 1982 described how dogs, boats and a helicopter were used to scour local waterways, fields, woodland and farm outbuildings.

Retired West Mercia Police constable Peter Sharrock was among the search teams but told how the septic tank was apparently overlooked by those looking for 48-year-old Mrs Venables.

Mr Sharrock said he was not aware any officers searched the underground chamber, adding: “I certainly never took part in searching the septic tank.

“I walked past it to get to the river area for searches.”

He added: “Nobody mentioned searching the tank.”

He described how 2019 media coverage about the discovery of human remains triggered a memory of what he now knew to have been the cesspit.


Mr Sharrock, retired Pc
In his statement, read to court on Thursday, he said: “I am aware from recent newspaper reports a body has been found in a septic tank.

“As soon as I saw an aerial view of the site, I remembered that I’d seen then, what I saw now.”

Septic tank where body found ‘not searched’ in 1982, murder trial told

David Venables is accused of murdering his wife Brenda, whose body was found on their farm.

www.asianimage.co.uk

Why did no one look - wouldn’t it be kind of obvious!?

 

[Cherwell]

I don't think it was obvious back then - its location was said to be overgrown, not openly visible as it is now.

 

[Argonaut]

SBM

I wish I hadn't read this. Now I keep on wondering how someone could drop the lid into the opening of the tank. The lid should be wider on all sides. Maybe one can slide it into the opening if the lid is rectangular and has been rotated 90 degrees, but an unfortunate drop is hardly possible. Like dropping the plug down the drain or the cork into the bottle. Oops! But no.

All septic lids that I've seen are square with beveled sides that prevent the lid from falling into the tank. Once in place they are flush(no pun intended) with the top of the tank. The lid can fit through the opening though if rotated and tilted. I believe you are thinking of man hole covers, which are round, usually made of steel, and can not fit through the opening.

It would not be hard to mishandle a septic lid and lose it in the tank.

 

[ZaZara]

Worcester Crown Court​	3​	T20217099​	david venables​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - DAVID VENABLES; Defence Closing Speech - 10:41

No reporting that I can find.

Dunno, but with what we have heard until now, if I were a member of the jury, I would have trouble rendering a guilty verdict. What evidence did they present that isn't circumstantial or about him being a nasty person? Can you convict a person on the basis of 'who else could have done it?' and WHAT exactly? There were no reports about the autopsy published in the press.

I really wish there was more reporting, hopefully someone will wrap it up in a longread soon.