Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen getting into taxi outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #9 *ARREST*

[yoyo1]

Tis a healthy process, the chewing of cud...

Strontium its interesting reading what you have to say -
You never know it may still be that shes just lying somewhere overlooked.
Theres still the loose end with the croda fence , if the fence is porous (gaps) PR could simply have dumped Libby in there where she conceivably would lay undisturbed for some time.
If the fence is found to be impenetrable then obviously croda can be ruled out.

 

[Newthoughts]

That would still take a lot of mental strength.

Imagine saying 'no comment' for 4 days wile being interviewed by very experienced detectives about the highest profile investigation in Hull's history.

If he were an ordinary offender maybe. But look at the crimes he's committed thus far and the fact he's pleaded not guilty to them. My guess is the police charged him with the easiest to prove cases, they took bags of evidence away. To keep him off the streets perhaps.

Between telling the press he'd be charged with an offence of voyeurism committed on boxing day and the court hearing that was changed to a different offence. Maybe an easier to prove offence came up that night

Also you don't get to hold many suspects for the full 96 hours. It does require something substantial.

So he could well have sat there for all that time and said no comment. It happened in the case of the young boy shot in Liverpool.

 

[Deleted member 238128]

Thanks Stella. So sniffer dogs have searched Libby’s house, but we don’t have any info about cadaver dogs checking out PR’s car, which was what was being discussed in the thread when I asked my original question.

I would find it deeply concerning to learn that LE compounded the car of a man suspected of abduction, whilst searching for a missing woman, and didn’t let their dog have a sniff. Or that they would have directed him only to alert for other forensic evidence or Libby in general as part of her recovery. Use of a cadaver dog would be a standard part of the forensic examination of a car in cases of a missing person in Libby’s circumstances. They have the resource.

I didn’t see you specify “car” in any of the 4 posts of yours that I read, so apologies if I missed that. I thought when you said in the “Libby investigation” you meant in general.

 

[Newthoughts]

I did give a break down a few pages ago of what I thought so far;

I'll go ahead and give you my 'Occam's Razor' view of this case. Presupposing that all the central evidence presented so far is relevant and that we take it at face value, there are a few inescapable 'features'.

1 - She refused Grey Beard's help, but she apparently got into PR's car willingly.
2 - PR possibly discarded a hammer, screw-driver and a lipstick from his car, yards from the spot she was last seen/known alive

I believe they drove to the anti-car park at the end of Beresford Avenue.

I cannot see ANY scenario where Libby staggers off drunk and ends up in the river. She would have to stagger slip and slide across 200 yards, before getting to a pitch black area obscuring the bank.

First, she's more likely in this scenario to be found next morning face down in the middle of the field somewhere. Second, she'd never negotiate the obstacles between the end of the path into the park and the river. She'd have to turn 45 degree left, negotiate a dog leg and avoid ending up in the abandoned boathouse compound, avoiding all the trees and brambles, climb UP THE STEEP BANK in the sheet ice, and fall into the river without leaving any traces in the mud or the reeds - or turn right, and stagger another 50 or more yards along the path, and then turn right and fall into the pond - (if she fell into the pond she would have been found on day one) - or turn left and negotiate the icy slipway up to the embankment, in pitch blackness. I tried this sober and completely lost my footing on this slipway in the dark and would have been snared in a bramble patch if the Police hadn't cleared them. By this point, you are blinded by the sharp lights of the factories across the river. If she fell into the river at any of these points I imagine A) marks in the mud (the river wasn't frozen) and B) traces of her fall through the reeds, even if she was swept away in a strong current.

The only other place really would be the drain at the back of her house, but they must have had a team of a dozen or so frogmen up and down that stretch in dinghies and wading in the water, using aquascopes. The one places they seemed to be seriously looking very early on was the drain, and I believe it was working on the assumption that she had fallen in drunk, either from the bridge on Beresford Avenue, or from the ten-foot round the back of her house.

So no, I cannot see anyone, no matter how wild and unkempt that park area appears, just falling down and lying undiscovered for three weeks and counting. It is very well trodden day and night all through the year. Between all the local kids and dog walkers there probably isn't an inch of the entire park area that ISN'T scoured and left undisturbed for long.

I rule out accident. I cannot see any scenario for that.

Therefore, I echo the Police - harm 'may' have come to Libby.

My problem with this case is it's transformation half way through. The case exhibits one set of characteristics, and then a completely different set. In Occam's Razor terms, the trail is definitely cold in the park. But like the Police, even though the trail is utterly cold, I believe the park is the thing. The key is in the park.

The screams and the running man, both fit in with the scope of the first half of the case, and also dovetails with PRs offending history. In that they fit the narrative established by PR's history and the activity around the bench, potential activity near her front door, potential implements discarded at the scene. (If PR had harmed Libby with these, of had just murdered her in the park, why would he discard these items that can be forensically linked to him BACK at the original scene?

However, once the narrative tries to move beyond the screams and the running man... there is nothing. At this point she could have been lifted out by helicopter, such is the nature of how suddenly and stone cold the trail goes.

The screams and running man both fit the narrative once we pre-plot PR's history in. Given the information of the pick-up at the bench, the offending near her house ten days earlier, the discarded implements, the admission she was in his car, given that information I WOULD GO LOOKING INTO THE PARK as my No1 place of suspicion that she came to harm in there. To then find out there was a scream heard, and a man seen running, that would instantly confirm to me that the narrative being plotted by all the evidence points so far was the correct assumption...

FUNDAMENTALLY:
* That PR went out of his way to pick Libby up in his car, take her to the park, and physically/sexually assault her.

Now here is where the major problem comes in. Here is where now this case is closed, and a case of a different nature is opened.

The case up to this point is predictable, it conforms to presented evidence and each stage has a natural lead or natural escalation to the next stage. Voyeurism; burglary; stalking; contact; assault; rape; murder; whether true or not, together they form a plausible narrative.

And then suddenly this randy young bloke who has carved a very clumsy clue riddled sexual criminal activity of a generic 20s something trying to lead a double life from his wife and kids; basically the guy was, apparently, an idiot in terms of conducting his affairs as a criminal mastermind, and seems to be on a course to be spoken to by the Police sooner or later...

..Is able to make a person/body disappear; not just disappear, but she disappears from the middle of a crime scene narrative. She is there, leaving signs and evidence, as humans do, in whatever seemingly innocuous ways...

Then she is simply not there.



I am not being flippant here, but my answer to this question is honestly, after weighing up all the available evidence, the likeliest scenario is LS was lifted out of the park by helicopter. OBVIOUSLY I am not actually suggesting an actual real life helicopter should now be the focus of the investigation. No. I mean simply that according to Occam's Razor helicopter is what it appears. In metaphorical terms the search party has followed a set of footprints in the deep snow in to the middle of a field where they just stop.

So I spin round in the paradox - I am convinced she WAS in the park.

She is NOT in the pond.
She is NOT in that part of the river between the two bridges (Sutton Road and Stoneferry)

So she is either, as people have suggested, far downstream, possibly in the estuary or even out to sea.

Or

She was taken out of the park by other means. For this I have to 'pencil in' an accomplice. I find it inconceivable with his offending history and methods that he was able to do this himself and evade forensics and CID for 3+ weeks.

So, yeah, sorry, went on a bit on stream of consciousness.

Boiled down I find these inescapable;
* She WAS in the park
* She IS NOW NOT in the park
* PR had an accomplice

I agree minus two points. The first is his clumsy criminal past. Up until his house was searched nobody had caught him for these crimes. Admittedly with police cuts they wouldn't be high priority but he wasn't clumsy enough to get caught.

Secondly I no longer think this was opportunistic. He was out late on a freezing cold well known student night in a student area near a possible drop off point for a bus he may have thought was running or a taxi. I think the scenario was planned. He'd possibly been hanging round before. He'd committed a fairly brazen burglary days before.

He probably wasn't alone but if there is an accomplice I'd guess they were in at the start. All of that makes my blood run cold for poor Libby as that's the worse case scenario.

 

[LucyRocket]

Hull mum whose son went missing is helping Libby Squire's family

 

[BrianJohnson]

I agree minus two points. The first is his clumsy criminal past. Up until his house was searched nobody had caught him for these crimes. Admittedly with police cuts they wouldn't be high priority but he wasn't clumsy enough to get caught.

Secondly I no longer think this was opportunistic. He was out late on a freezing cold well known student night in a student area near a possible drop off point for a bus he may have thought was running or a taxi. I think the scenario was planned. He'd possibly been hanging round before. He'd committed a fairly brazen burglary days before.

He probably wasn't alone but if there is an accomplice I'd guess they were in at the start. All of that makes my blood run cold for poor Libby as that's the worse case scenario.

I don’t see how there could have been an accomplice, the police have access to PR’s phone and phone records, any calls between Libby last being sighted and 3am would be traced so I doubt that he made any in that time

I doubt he verbally told any accomplice ‘i am going to kill a girl tonight meet me in the park car park at 2am’, I doubt murder was on his mind

He is either very smart or very lucky but I believe he acted alone

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Yes the hammer/sdriver.

I had assumed that he ditched it early on - it makes no sense to do so after harming Libby - why return to the start of your crime and just throw something that can be forensically traced back to you right at the scene? I don't believe they are insignificant - they at least are tied to PR, if not any crime against Libby. And, I hadn't realised what it was about them that was bugging me... it is like you have said, why haven't they featured more?

Perhaps they are 'unconnected' to LS directly?

Perhaps he had used them earlier in the area; handy tools for getting a window open; perhaps he had snatched a burglary opportunity earlier and had stolen the lipstick from some one's house... either that night, or earlier and it was still in the car?

if he 'knew' he was going to offend later on, still, why now ditch them right at the most blatant part of the crime scene you know you are about to create?

it makes more sense like you suggest, that he had deposited these here earlier, intending to return to pick up, and became distracted with the rest of his night, stalking Libby/a student home from Piper/Newland/Welly.

Hmm... yes... that fits better... thanks...

* The hammer/sdriver/listick are unconnected to Libby, but are part of one of his 'unrelated' offences of burglary/voyuerism etc as per his personal pattern
* He ditched them intending to return to them, but his 'offending' against Libby took him further than he had planned/anticipated, and in the panic he forgot to retrieve them.

These items as reported in MSM on Feb 3rd.
Screwdriver, hammer and lip gloss found by police amid new sighting

Items were found after a report of a person acting suspiciously nearby.

Imho the items dont appear to be ' in a bush' nor do they appear stashed. It looks more like theyve been recently dropped/thrown while walking/driving past .

LE dismissed any relevance quite quickly imo, MSM reporting slightly differing different phrases :
But Humberside Police said they were not "connected with the inquiry into her disappearance" and the items were "part of another investigation".
'Just want you home' missing student told

Iirc msm also reported a slight variation on the primary part of above quote so it read 'not connected with the inquiry into her disappearance AT THIS TIME"

I struggle to find a place in any narrative. Or equally you can make them fit any narrative.

Has someone (not PR) placed them there hoping they would be able to be linked to PR after LS disappearance?

Would like to know the Nationality of the person who reported initially.

Or does PR's narrative involve them ...


Or LE correct to rule out.

 

[scootermuppet]

I did give a break down a few pages ago of what I thought so far;

I'll go ahead and give you my 'Occam's Razor' view of this case. Presupposing that all the central evidence presented so far is relevant and that we take it at face value, there are a few inescapable 'features'.

1 - She refused Grey Beard's help, but she apparently got into PR's car willingly.
2 - PR possibly discarded a hammer, screw-driver and a lipstick from his car, yards from the spot she was last seen/known alive

I believe they drove to the anti-car park at the end of Beresford Avenue.

I cannot see ANY scenario where Libby staggers off drunk and ends up in the river. She would have to stagger slip and slide across 200 yards, before getting to a pitch black area obscuring the bank.

First, she's more likely in this scenario to be found next morning face down in the middle of the field somewhere. Second, she'd never negotiate the obstacles between the end of the path into the park and the river. She'd have to turn 45 degree left, negotiate a dog leg and avoid ending up in the abandoned boathouse compound, avoiding all the trees and brambles, climb UP THE STEEP BANK in the sheet ice, and fall into the river without leaving any traces in the mud or the reeds - or turn right, and stagger another 50 or more yards along the path, and then turn right and fall into the pond - (if she fell into the pond she would have been found on day one) - or turn left and negotiate the icy slipway up to the embankment, in pitch blackness. I tried this sober and completely lost my footing on this slipway in the dark and would have been snared in a bramble patch if the Police hadn't cleared them. By this point, you are blinded by the sharp lights of the factories across the river. If she fell into the river at any of these points I imagine A) marks in the mud (the river wasn't frozen) and B) traces of her fall through the reeds, even if she was swept away in a strong current.

The only other place really would be the drain at the back of her house, but they must have had a team of a dozen or so frogmen up and down that stretch in dinghies and wading in the water, using aquascopes. The one places they seemed to be seriously looking very early on was the drain, and I believe it was working on the assumption that she had fallen in drunk, either from the bridge on Beresford Avenue, or from the ten-foot round the back of her house.

So no, I cannot see anyone, no matter how wild and unkempt that park area appears, just falling down and lying undiscovered for three weeks and counting. It is very well trodden day and night all through the year. Between all the local kids and dog walkers there probably isn't an inch of the entire park area that ISN'T scoured and left undisturbed for long.

I rule out accident. I cannot see any scenario for that.

Therefore, I echo the Police - harm 'may' have come to Libby.

My problem with this case is it's transformation half way through. The case exhibits one set of characteristics, and then a completely different set. In Occam's Razor terms, the trail is definitely cold in the park. But like the Police, even though the trail is utterly cold, I believe the park is the thing. The key is in the park.

The screams and the running man, both fit in with the scope of the first half of the case, and also dovetails with PRs offending history. In that they fit the narrative established by PR's history and the activity around the bench, potential activity near her front door, potential implements discarded at the scene. (If PR had harmed Libby with these, of had just murdered her in the park, why would he discard these items that can be forensically linked to him BACK at the original scene?

However, once the narrative tries to move beyond the screams and the running man... there is nothing. At this point she could have been lifted out by helicopter, such is the nature of how suddenly and stone cold the trail goes.

The screams and running man both fit the narrative once we pre-plot PR's history in. Given the information of the pick-up at the bench, the offending near her house ten days earlier, the discarded implements, the admission she was in his car, given that information I WOULD GO LOOKING INTO THE PARK as my No1 place of suspicion that she came to harm in there. To then find out there was a scream heard, and a man seen running, that would instantly confirm to me that the narrative being plotted by all the evidence points so far was the correct assumption...

FUNDAMENTALLY:
* That PR went out of his way to pick Libby up in his car, take her to the park, and physically/sexually assault her.

Now here is where the major problem comes in. Here is where now this case is closed, and a case of a different nature is opened.

The case up to this point is predictable, it conforms to presented evidence and each stage has a natural lead or natural escalation to the next stage. Voyeurism; burglary; stalking; contact; assault; rape; murder; whether true or not, together they form a plausible narrative.

And then suddenly this randy young bloke who has carved a very clumsy clue riddled sexual criminal activity of a generic 20s something trying to lead a double life from his wife and kids; basically the guy was, apparently, an idiot in terms of conducting his affairs as a criminal mastermind, and seems to be on a course to be spoken to by the Police sooner or later...

..Is able to make a person/body disappear; not just disappear, but she disappears from the middle of a crime scene narrative. She is there, leaving signs and evidence, as humans do, in whatever seemingly innocuous ways...

Then she is simply not there.



I am not being flippant here, but my answer to this question is honestly, after weighing up all the available evidence, the likeliest scenario is LS was lifted out of the park by helicopter. OBVIOUSLY I am not actually suggesting an actual real life helicopter should now be the focus of the investigation. No. I mean simply that according to Occam's Razor helicopter is what it appears. In metaphorical terms the search party has followed a set of footprints in the deep snow in to the middle of a field where they just stop.

So I spin round in the paradox - I am convinced she WAS in the park.

She is NOT in the pond.
She is NOT in that part of the river between the two bridges (Sutton Road and Stoneferry)

So she is either, as people have suggested, far downstream, possibly in the estuary or even out to sea.

Or

She was taken out of the park by other means. For this I have to 'pencil in' an accomplice. I find it inconceivable with his offending history and methods that he was able to do this himself and evade forensics and CID for 3+ weeks.

So, yeah, sorry, went on a bit on stream of consciousness.

Boiled down I find these inescapable;
* She WAS in the park
* She IS NOW NOT in the park
* PR had an accomplice

Or...there is no crime except a very sad event that of a distressed girl taking her own life after possibly an attempt was made to get her home and she never intended to go inside her home. I assume I will be shot down for even suggesting this horrible thought but with all of our assumptions on here I have to think if this as a possibility in my own mind. Impossible or even implausible? Sure. Just thinking out loud if that’s ok. I am a local, not that it makes s big difference to anybody else’s thoughts on here but just like the rest of the country unfortunately young people and suicide is an issue. I am not victim blaming at all, as I said I am thinking out loud and I’m frustrated at this terrible loss of a person too.

 

[Joolz1975]

I did give a break down a few pages ago of what I thought so far;

I'll go ahead and give you my 'Occam's Razor' view of this case. Presupposing that all the central evidence presented so far is relevant and that we take it at face value, there are a few inescapable 'features'.

1 - She refused Grey Beard's help, but she apparently got into PR's car willingly.
2 - PR possibly discarded a hammer, screw-driver and a lipstick from his car, yards from the spot she was last seen/known alive

I believe they drove to the anti-car park at the end of Beresford Avenue.

I cannot see ANY scenario where Libby staggers off drunk and ends up in the river. She would have to stagger slip and slide across 200 yards, before getting to a pitch black area obscuring the bank.

First, she's more likely in this scenario to be found next morning face down in the middle of the field somewhere. Second, she'd never negotiate the obstacles between the end of the path into the park and the river. She'd have to turn 45 degree left, negotiate a dog leg and avoid ending up in the abandoned boathouse compound, avoiding all the trees and brambles, climb UP THE STEEP BANK in the sheet ice, and fall into the river without leaving any traces in the mud or the reeds - or turn right, and stagger another 50 or more yards along the path, and then turn right and fall into the pond - (if she fell into the pond she would have been found on day one) - or turn left and negotiate the icy slipway up to the embankment, in pitch blackness. I tried this sober and completely lost my footing on this slipway in the dark and would have been snared in a bramble patch if the Police hadn't cleared them. By this point, you are blinded by the sharp lights of the factories across the river. If she fell into the river at any of these points I imagine A) marks in the mud (the river wasn't frozen) and B) traces of her fall through the reeds, even if she was swept away in a strong current.

The only other place really would be the drain at the back of her house, but they must have had a team of a dozen or so frogmen up and down that stretch in dinghies and wading in the water, using aquascopes. The one places they seemed to be seriously looking very early on was the drain, and I believe it was working on the assumption that she had fallen in drunk, either from the bridge on Beresford Avenue, or from the ten-foot round the back of her house.

So no, I cannot see anyone, no matter how wild and unkempt that park area appears, just falling down and lying undiscovered for three weeks and counting. It is very well trodden day and night all through the year. Between all the local kids and dog walkers there probably isn't an inch of the entire park area that ISN'T scoured and left undisturbed for long.

I rule out accident. I cannot see any scenario for that.

Therefore, I echo the Police - harm 'may' have come to Libby.

My problem with this case is it's transformation half way through. The case exhibits one set of characteristics, and then a completely different set. In Occam's Razor terms, the trail is definitely cold in the park. But like the Police, even though the trail is utterly cold, I believe the park is the thing. The key is in the park.

The screams and the running man, both fit in with the scope of the first half of the case, and also dovetails with PRs offending history. In that they fit the narrative established by PR's history and the activity around the bench, potential activity near her front door, potential implements discarded at the scene. (If PR had harmed Libby with these, of had just murdered her in the park, why would he discard these items that can be forensically linked to him BACK at the original scene?

However, once the narrative tries to move beyond the screams and the running man... there is nothing. At this point she could have been lifted out by helicopter, such is the nature of how suddenly and stone cold the trail goes.

The screams and running man both fit the narrative once we pre-plot PR's history in. Given the information of the pick-up at the bench, the offending near her house ten days earlier, the discarded implements, the admission she was in his car, given that information I WOULD GO LOOKING INTO THE PARK as my No1 place of suspicion that she came to harm in there. To then find out there was a scream heard, and a man seen running, that would instantly confirm to me that the narrative being plotted by all the evidence points so far was the correct assumption...

FUNDAMENTALLY:
* That PR went out of his way to pick Libby up in his car, take her to the park, and physically/sexually assault her.

Now here is where the major problem comes in. Here is where now this case is closed, and a case of a different nature is opened.

The case up to this point is predictable, it conforms to presented evidence and each stage has a natural lead or natural escalation to the next stage. Voyeurism; burglary; stalking; contact; assault; rape; murder; whether true or not, together they form a plausible narrative.

And then suddenly this randy young bloke who has carved a very clumsy clue riddled sexual criminal activity of a generic 20s something trying to lead a double life from his wife and kids; basically the guy was, apparently, an idiot in terms of conducting his affairs as a criminal mastermind, and seems to be on a course to be spoken to by the Police sooner or later...

..Is able to make a person/body disappear; not just disappear, but she disappears from the middle of a crime scene narrative. She is there, leaving signs and evidence, as humans do, in whatever seemingly innocuous ways...

Then she is simply not there.



I am not being flippant here, but my answer to this question is honestly, after weighing up all the available evidence, the likeliest scenario is LS was lifted out of the park by helicopter. OBVIOUSLY I am not actually suggesting an actual real life helicopter should now be the focus of the investigation. No. I mean simply that according to Occam's Razor helicopter is what it appears. In metaphorical terms the search party has followed a set of footprints in the deep snow in to the middle of a field where they just stop.

So I spin round in the paradox - I am convinced she WAS in the park.

She is NOT in the pond.
She is NOT in that part of the river between the two bridges (Sutton Road and Stoneferry)

So she is either, as people have suggested, far downstream, possibly in the estuary or even out to sea.

Or

She was taken out of the park by other means. For this I have to 'pencil in' an accomplice. I find it inconceivable with his offending history and methods that he was able to do this himself and evade forensics and CID for 3+ weeks.

So, yeah, sorry, went on a bit on stream of consciousness.

Boiled down I find these inescapable;
* She WAS in the park
* She IS NOW NOT in the park
* PR had an accomplice

I'm pretty much with you 100% on this.

I've been thinking another vehicle/accomplice for a while but keep changing my mind when others point out that it's a stretch (maybe I should stick to my guns and not be swayed).

You have researched the area more than anyone and provided such valuable updates that it just reaffirms my thoughts that she was in the park but isn't any longer.

I wish I could type such long and detailed accounts like you do but I lose my train of thought every 3 seconds

 

[Joolz1975]

Or...there is no crime except a very sad event that of a distressed girl taking her own life after possibly an attempt was made to get her home and she never intended to go inside her home. I assume I will be shot down for even suggesting this horrible thought but with all of our assumptions on here I have to think if this as a possibility in my own mind. Impossible or even implausible? Sure. Just thinking out loud if that’s ok. I am a local, not that it makes s big difference to anybody else’s thoughts on here but just like the rest of the country unfortunately young people and suicide is an issue. I am not victim blaming at all, as I said I am thinking out loud and I’m frustrated at this terrible loss of a person too.

Hey nobody should shoot you down, your as entitled to your opinion as anyone.

We have already heard she was distressed that night so nothing should be discounted I suppose.

But they obviously suspect PR for a reason and he is still under investigation so i do think that's most likely but we may never know.

If she had harmed herself I feel that she would have been found by now though also.

 

[Zazie]

Lets hope no one on here is ever accused of committing a crime. Our google searches would have us locked up for life.

I know! (I keep worrying @Strontium69 is going to get picked up for suspicious activity in the park at night!)

 

[Deleted member 238128]

These items as reported in MSM on Feb 3rd.
Screwdriver, hammer and lip gloss found by police amid new sighting

Items were found after a report of a person acting suspiciously nearby.

Imho the items dont appear to be ' in a bush' nor do they appear stashed. It looks more like theyve been recently dropped/thrown while walking/driving past .

LE dismissed any relevance quite quickly imo, MSM reporting slightly differing different phrases :
But Humberside Police said they were not "connected with the inquiry into her disappearance" and the items were "part of another investigation".
'Just want you home' missing student told

Iirc msm also reported a slight variation on the primary part of above quote so it read 'not connected with the inquiry into her disappearance AT THIS TIME"

I struggle to find a place in any narrative. Or equally you can make them fit any narrative.

Has someone (not PR) placed them there hoping they would be able to be linked to PR after LS disappearance?

Would like to know the Nationality of the person who reported initially.

Or does PR's narrative involve them ...


Or LE correct to rule out.

Yes SVS, the language “at this time” has bothered me too. Why would anyone place those items at that bench unless trying to implicate P if they can be linked to him or suggest a crime if they can’t. Unless you are just a very odd person who enjoys mischief and are taking a day off flying drones over airports! I would love to know what that hammer and screwdriver were used to gain access to before finding their way to that bench, and with a lipgloss? Too many councidences for my liking

 

[scootermuppet]

Hey nobody should shoot you down, your as entitled to your opinion as anyone.

We have already heard she was distressed that night so nothing should be discounted I suppose.

But they obviously suspect PR for a reason and he is still under investigation so i do think that's most likely but we may never know.

If she had harmed herself I feel that she would have been found by now though also.

I too believe a body will have been found by now. It’s such a mystery

 

[Joolz1975]

Yes SVS, the language “at this time” has bothered me too. Why would anyone place those items at that bench unless trying to implicate P if they can be linked to him or suggest a crime if they can’t. Unless you are just a very odd person who enjoys mischief and are taking a day off flying drones over airports! I would love to know what that hammer and screwdriver were used to gain access to before finding their way to that bench, and with a lipgloss? Too many councidences for my liking

Agreed.

They surely must be connected.

If not directly to Libbys disappearance then to the his other activities.

 

[Joolz1975]

I know! (I keep worrying @Strontium69 is going to get picked up for suspicious activity in the park at night!)

Haha yes me too.

 

[Quintet]

Yes the hammer/sdriver.

I had assumed that he ditched it early on - it makes no sense to do so after harming Libby - why return to the start of your crime and just throw something that can be forensically traced back to you right at the scene? I don't believe they are insignificant - they at least are tied to PR, if not any crime against Libby. And, I hadn't realised what it was about them that was bugging me... it is like you have said, why haven't they featured more?

Perhaps they are 'unconnected' to LS directly?

Perhaps he had used them earlier in the area; handy tools for getting a window open; perhaps he had snatched a burglary opportunity earlier and had stolen the lipstick from some one's house... either that night, or earlier and it was still in the car?

if he 'knew' he was going to offend later on, still, why now ditch them right at the most blatant part of the crime scene you know you are about to create?

it makes more sense like you suggest, that he had deposited these here earlier, intending to return to pick up, and became distracted with the rest of his night, stalking Libby/a student home from Piper/Newland/Welly.

Hmm... yes... that fits better... thanks...

* The hammer/sdriver/listick are unconnected to Libby, but are part of one of his 'unrelated' offences of burglary/voyuerism etc as per his personal pattern
* He ditched them intending to return to them, but his 'offending' against Libby took him further than he had planned/anticipated, and in the panic he forgot to retrieve them.

Yes, that’s my feeling. I’m sure his thing was to find out where these young ladies live, by watching and following, with the intention of entering their property to take personal items/trophies. It’s quite possible that this was his “intention” with Libby also, he saw her on the bench, maybe unaware of earlier events that she had already been dropped off at home, but, was waiting and expecting her to start walking home, follow her, with the “intention” of seeking her address, watching from outside to see which bedroom light came on and to enable him to go back at a later time. It would fit with the car doors locking & unlocking, he goes to check, sees she’s still sat there, waits longer, then gets inpatient as he realises she’s not going anywhere. So, he decides the only way he’s going to get her address is to actually ask her. I expect he offered her a lift, I expect she will have asked to go to the Welly to get a key from her friends or more likely hope that the doormen relent and allow her to join them. I think PR will have suggested heading to her home to check first that no-one has returned in the meantime. He may have put her address in his phone satnav at that time, I’m not certain that’s the case, as it’s also possible he put it in when he saw the cctv released, knowing that he’s been seen and that it’s a big likely there is more cctv showing it more clearly that LS got in his vehicle. He could have then put it in his phone satnav to suggest he did actually take her home or intended to (the sisters story). I think it’s the latter personally. I think he thought he was in the clear until the cctv.

Once he got her in the car, he maybe did just think he did have an unexpected opportunity to chance his arm so to speak, seeing how drunk LS was. Did he offer to drive around until she warmed up first, giving him chance to decide what he should do with her? What was his decision is the question we need to know...?

If PR’s satnav in his phone is like mine, it remembers what has been put in/searched even if cleared. If I put in just a couple of letters that spells out somewhere I’ve previously entered, it will bring up my past. If his does the same, the Police may have discovered the other addresses in his satnav related to his charges and likely there could be more that they’re working thru, as not everyone would report it if either embarrassed or frightened of repercussions etc

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Or...there is no crime except a very sad event that of a distressed girl taking her own life after possibly an attempt was made to get her home and she never intended to go inside her home. I assume I will be shot down for even suggesting this horrible thought but with all of our assumptions on here I have to think if this as a possibility in my own mind. Impossible or even implausible? Sure. Just thinking out loud if that’s ok. I am a local, not that it makes s big difference to anybody else’s thoughts on here but just like the rest of the country unfortunately young people and suicide is an issue. I am not victim blaming at all, as I said I am thinking out loud and I’m frustrated at this terrible loss of a person too.

The Pitchforkers will be on their way SM! If the HullLive comments mob find out youve been saying this , it's curtains!

Its a sad reality/possibility as you say. But where/how? The body would have been found? Unless River/Sea bound?

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Quote nightmare . Delete

 

[Inspecthernightly]

I don’t see how there could have been an accomplice, the police have access to PR’s phone and phone records, any calls between Libby last being sighted and 3am would be traced so I doubt that he made any in that time

I doubt he verbally told any accomplice ‘i am going to kill a girl tonight meet me in the park car park at 2am’, I doubt murder was on his mind

He is either very smart or very lucky but I believe he acted alone

I dont agree with this assumption he acted alone. what happened in the park was perhaps just PR and libby but how does this tie in with the screams heard by heathcote witnesses? Did she manage to escape, run down berisford or wellesley ave then got caught by PR or an acomplice not far from her home possibly walked down the street at knife point. libby struggles/ screams witnesses hear libby and males walking by(muttering) ? Telling her to keep quiet, then mumuring sounds , (probaby libby scared shitless) and the wooden door/ gate shutting and more screams. I THINK THIS IS SIGNIFCANT.. Lets suppose the screams were nothing to do with libby, wouldnt that person/ persons have come forward to say it was us? Its a shame the heathcote witnesses never looked at their window to see what was happening, if they had this might have been alot easier for LE to solve. Jmo of course

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I know! (I keep worrying @Strontium69 is going to get picked up for suspicious activity in the park at night!)

Hmm...men on bikes do seem to be a recurring theme.....Haworth...Croda CCTV...the physical and mental battle to pull away from the Peloton near the Wolds...(oh hang on..thats the Tour de Yorkshire im thinking of) Can anyone see if the guy on Haworth or Croda is talking to himself? (This ends this example of the established and useful dramatic and lit. device of Comic Relief)