Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen getting into taxi outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #9 *ARREST*

[TheCasual]

Not if he stayed silent throughout

That would still take a lot of mental strength.

Imagine saying 'no comment' for 4 days wile being interviewed by very experienced detectives about the highest profile investigation in Hull's history.

 

[Mollie123]

That would still take a lot of mental strength.

Imagine saying 'no comment' for 4 days wile being interviewed by very experienced detectives about the highest profile investigation in Hull's history.

I agree.. the ability to 'zone out' of a situation is amongst the psychological profile of a certain type of person who wouldn't necessarily keep saying 'no comment', but just stay silent.

 

[Deleted member 238128]

That would still take a lot of mental strength.

Imagine saying 'no comment' for 4 days wile being interviewed by very experienced detectives about the highest profile investigation in Hull's history.

It would be wile hard. Sorry, overtired here. I am going to bed now. Let’s hope for some breaking news soon.

 

[JeremyBentham]

That would still take a lot of mental strength.

Imagine saying 'no comment' for 4 days wile being interviewed by very experienced detectives about the highest profile investigation in Hull's history.

Would be so interesting to see the interview tapes, just to see his demeanor. Was he scared, staying silent/no comment or cocky knowing he was winning.

The police seriously need a lucky break here in finding something.

 

[Atoz]

That would still take a lot of mental strength.

Imagine saying 'no comment' for 4 days wile being interviewed by very experienced detectives about the highest profile investigation in Hull's history.

If an interpreter was requested throughout then it may have dissipated the impact of the questioning somewhat.

 

[Winterbells]

Just so I know - is this a wee joke? Or are you confused about whether or not cadaver dogs have been used to try and locate Libby? I’d like to be helpful/ enjoy your humour as appropriate

I asked if we know from MSM whether the police have used cadaver dogs and you said yes. I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere, so I wondered if you'd misunderstood my question as being a general 'do the police use cadaver dogs?', hence you replied, 'yes'. So then I clarified my question with 'I meant in the Libby investigation' and you replied 'I know'. All I want to know really, is how has it become fact that the police have used cadaver dogs in this investigation? I know they've used search dogs (dog units) but I haven't seen it reported anywhere in the MSM that they have used specialist cadaver dogs. Could you please point me to where you have read or seen this as fact, thanks.

 

[Quintet]

Not if he stayed silent throughout

He was questioned for 96 hours. It would great mental strength to not crack under that pressure. Even inadvertently.

bez komentarza

 

[Strontium69]

A theory.. what about he's actually staying silent because he is actually covering for someone. A willing participant due to his alleged interests?

I have had this theory in my mind almost since the start, particularly with the mentions of trafficking as a possibility. I pictured it as him having associates that he was more loyal to/afraid of than the British Justice System. While I've always had positive interactions with the Poles, they have integrated excellently, and it is some of the 1st generation Poles from 10 years ago who are raising young families and MOVING AWAY FROM NEWLAND area due to it's ghettoisation, and into regeneration areas that were once utterly blighted in the 80s, like Hessle Road area and North Hull Estate.

I have nothing but love for our Polish cousins. BUT you have to also be aware that the Poles are possibly some of the fiercest nationalists you will find, and yo can find evidence of this all over the UK, and also in the US, where they have extremely strong and close communities, mainly based around a particular occupation. Just like the Irish and the Italians, but stronger.

PR seems reasonably comfortable, and also seems to have a lot more social mobility than a lot of native English of the same age in a similar semi-skilled manual job. How did he manage to get here from Poland, moving the WRONG WAY in financial terms; according to the press his family are piratically penniless, but certainly not with the spare funds sloshing about to send a favourite son from somewhere very cheap to somewhere extremely expensive.

So, even though PR may be fully legal as a migrant worker and Polish National, has he had support to get here and get a boost to start-up a new life with? And thus has debts, and loyalty, to repay?

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

bez komentarza

Dziękuję

Edit. To make molly look like she's copying my perfect spelling .

 

[Mollie123]

Djiękuję

Dziękuję

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I have had this theory in my mind almost since the start, particularly with the mentions of trafficking as a possibility. I pictured it as him having associates that he was more loyal to/afraid of than the British Justice System. While I've always had positive interactions with the Poles, they have integrated excellently, and it is some of the 1st generation Poles from 10 years ago who are raising young families and MOVING AWAY FROM NEWLAND area due to it's ghettoisation, and into regeneration areas that were once utterly blighted in the 80s, like Hessle Road area and North Hull Estate.

I have nothing but love for our Polish cousins. BUT you have to also be aware that the Poles are possibly some of the fiercest nationalists you will find, and yo can find evidence of this all over the UK, and also in the US, where they have extremely strong and close communities, mainly based around a particular occupation. Just like the Irish and the Italians, but stronger.

PR seems reasonably comfortable, and also seems to have a lot more social mobility than a lot of native English of the same age in a similar semi-skilled manual job. How did he manage to get here from Poland, moving the WRONG WAY in financial terms; according to the press his family are piratically penniless, but certainly not with the spare funds sloshing about to send a favourite son from somewhere very cheap to somewhere extremely expensive.

So, even though PR may be fully legal as a migrant worker and Polish National, has he had support to get here and get a boost to start-up a new life with? And thus has debts, and loyalty, to repay?

I dont like it Strontium.

Theres just no suggestion or evidence of any kind of network?

He's done what tens of thousands of his fellow nationals have done since the liberalisation of EU borders. Although the standard of living is lower in Poland, it's not 3rd world.

I understand he worked in a Beet factory before leaving Poland. Probably v low paid but a regular income nontheless?

If he applied himself at home like he seems to have done in the UK ( not clubbing/drinking at wkends etc) then not unthinkable to easily save enough for a flight or a ferry to the UK to look for a better life/income. I think you articulate this well in your own post. Worker..rents decent house..runs a car...family kids...dog...gym membership etc.

 

[Mollie123]

In my very personal opinion... the opportunity has arisen for uneducated EU citizens to gain employment over here(do not want political debate). Poles have a fantastic rate of University degree status nationally.
My belief, this has nothing whatsoever to do with race/education/status. This is merely and moreover a 'type of person' being very excited at the proposal of being involved in something of interest to them and said proposal being presented to them.

 

[Quintet]

I have had this theory in my mind almost since the start, particularly with the mentions of trafficking as a possibility. I pictured it as him having associates that he was more loyal to/afraid of than the British Justice System. While I've always had positive interactions with the Poles, they have integrated excellently, and it is some of the 1st generation Poles from 10 years ago who are raising young families and MOVING AWAY FROM NEWLAND area due to it's ghettoisation, and into regeneration areas that were once utterly blighted in the 80s, like Hessle Road area and North Hull Estate.

I have nothing but love for our Polish cousins. BUT you have to also be aware that the Poles are possibly some of the fiercest nationalists you will find, and yo can find evidence of this all over the UK, and also in the US, where they have extremely strong and close communities, mainly based around a particular occupation. Just like the Irish and the Italians, but stronger.

PR seems reasonably comfortable, and also seems to have a lot more social mobility than a lot of native English of the same age in a similar semi-skilled manual job. How did he manage to get here from Poland, moving the WRONG WAY in financial terms; according to the press his family are piratically penniless, but certainly not with the spare funds sloshing about to send a favourite son from somewhere very cheap to somewhere extremely expensive.

So, even though PR may be fully legal as a migrant worker and Polish National, has he had support to get here and get a boost to start-up a new life with? And thus has debts, and loyalty, to repay?

Wrong way in financial terms? That’s flummoxed me to be fair. Scratches head.

 

[grumpiness]

This long with no body?

There are a case on the Tyne where woman went in on boxing day and was found on feb 3rd. Similar time of year cold river taking longer for the body to float

Body found in missing woman search

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

Snipped for focus and BBM:

I have nothing but love for our Polish cousins. BUT you have to also be aware that the Poles are possibly some of the fiercest nationalists you will find, and yo can find evidence of this all over the UK, and also in the US, where they have extremely strong and close communities, mainly based around a particular occupation. Just like the Irish and the Italians, but stronger.

Based on my experiences in an area of the U.S. with a large Polish immigrant community, I agree with many of your observations. However, I was unaware of Polish immigrants having a particular occupation, other than their "starter job." They, like many other Eastern European immigrants in my area, despite their previous occupations or skills, seem almost always to start with house cleaning work until they acquire sufficient English / become better established to move into more desirable jobs. I was curious if the "particular occupation" you mentioned was house cleaning, and if so, if it's because it would give cleaners knowledge of the contents of clients' homes, and probably keys or access codes. Thus, making it easy to know which homes had "intimate items" to steal and / or easy to gain access. Could PR have "borrowed" house keys or codes, or paid on-the-job visits to an acquaintance who worked as a house cleaner? Apologies if this question has already been covered. TIA. MOO.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I dont like it Strontium.

Theres just no suggestion or evidence of any kind of network?

He's done what tens of thousands of his fellow nationals have done since the liberalisation of EU borders. Although the standard of living is lower in Poland, it's not 3rd world.

I understand he worked in a Beet factory before leaving Poland. Probably v low paid but a regular income nontheless?

If he applied himself at home like he seems to have done in the UK ( not clubbing/drinking at wkends etc) then not unthinkable to easily save enough for a flight or a ferry to the UK to look for a better life/income. I think you articulate this well in your own post. Worker..rents decent house..runs a car...family kids...dog...gym membership etc.

I just cant get past the 'opportunistic element gone bad 'line of thought.

Ok he may have been cruising around, with ill intent or perving, or going to shop water for gym..or looking at potential voyeurism targets . Knowing Thurs is really the first night of the weekend for students (Welly opens Thurs-Sun for example).

Sees drunken young lass on bench...parks up close on Haworth but off Bev Rd. 10/20mins thinking/psyching himself up ,including maybe even gets off just watching her from around the tree on the corner for a bit?? Comes back to car, has a (post wank?) cig...decision made that its an ideal if unplanned chance to take it further.?
Eta:
My only slight concern is the charge of the previous offence on Wellesley and is that linked in any way to LS or Household

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Ive also wondered if it has any bearing that in v early reports MSM reported the ages (and irresponsibly imo the names ) of his children. iirc the youngest being only 3mnths old.

Did the fact that his wife had been pregnant and then recently neo-natal and perhaps understandably not willing or able to fulfil PR's sexual needs/demands, lead to an escalation due to his sexual frustration?

Interesting to try to link behaviour around the same timescale of first child and see if any unsolved cases? Or maybe it was knowing the way this period panned out with first child and not being able to cope with same again.
Had this lead him to take more risks?

 

[Strontium69]

Strontium I think it’s likely as a “one man band” you’ve likely perused more of the investigated area than (from what we’ve been privy to see by the police) ... what’s your gut feeling as you’ve been cycling the area. Do you feel LS is there in that area somewhere?

I wrote this a couple of hours ago, decided not to post it and then accidentally (because I haven’t quite got the hang of technology) posted it anyways! Must be fate or...stupidity. ST69 don’t feel obliged to answer!

I did give a break down a few pages ago of what I thought so far;

I'll go ahead and give you my 'Occam's Razor' view of this case. Presupposing that all the central evidence presented so far is relevant and that we take it at face value, there are a few inescapable 'features'.

1 - She refused Grey Beard's help, but she apparently got into PR's car willingly.
2 - PR possibly discarded a hammer, screw-driver and a lipstick from his car, yards from the spot she was last seen/known alive

I believe they drove to the anti-car park at the end of Beresford Avenue.

I cannot see ANY scenario where Libby staggers off drunk and ends up in the river. She would have to stagger slip and slide across 200 yards, before getting to a pitch black area obscuring the bank.

First, she's more likely in this scenario to be found next morning face down in the middle of the field somewhere. Second, she'd never negotiate the obstacles between the end of the path into the park and the river. She'd have to turn 45 degree left, negotiate a dog leg and avoid ending up in the abandoned boathouse compound, avoiding all the trees and brambles, climb UP THE STEEP BANK in the sheet ice, and fall into the river without leaving any traces in the mud or the reeds - or turn right, and stagger another 50 or more yards along the path, and then turn right and fall into the pond - (if she fell into the pond she would have been found on day one) - or turn left and negotiate the icy slipway up to the embankment, in pitch blackness. I tried this sober and completely lost my footing on this slipway in the dark and would have been snared in a bramble patch if the Police hadn't cleared them. By this point, you are blinded by the sharp lights of the factories across the river. If she fell into the river at any of these points I imagine A) marks in the mud (the river wasn't frozen) and B) traces of her fall through the reeds, even if she was swept away in a strong current.

The only other place really would be the drain at the back of her house, but they must have had a team of a dozen or so frogmen up and down that stretch in dinghies and wading in the water, using aquascopes. The one places they seemed to be seriously looking very early on was the drain, and I believe it was working on the assumption that she had fallen in drunk, either from the bridge on Beresford Avenue, or from the ten-foot round the back of her house.

So no, I cannot see anyone, no matter how wild and unkempt that park area appears, just falling down and lying undiscovered for three weeks and counting. It is very well trodden day and night all through the year. Between all the local kids and dog walkers there probably isn't an inch of the entire park area that ISN'T scoured and left undisturbed for long.

I rule out accident. I cannot see any scenario for that.

Therefore, I echo the Police - harm 'may' have come to Libby.

My problem with this case is it's transformation half way through. The case exhibits one set of characteristics, and then a completely different set. In Occam's Razor terms, the trail is definitely cold in the park. But like the Police, even though the trail is utterly cold, I believe the park is the thing. The key is in the park.

The screams and the running man, both fit in with the scope of the first half of the case, and also dovetails with PRs offending history. In that they fit the narrative established by PR's history and the activity around the bench, potential activity near her front door, potential implements discarded at the scene. (If PR had harmed Libby with these, of had just murdered her in the park, why would he discard these items that can be forensically linked to him BACK at the original scene?

However, once the narrative tries to move beyond the screams and the running man... there is nothing. At this point she could have been lifted out by helicopter, such is the nature of how suddenly and stone cold the trail goes.

The screams and running man both fit the narrative once we pre-plot PR's history in. Given the information of the pick-up at the bench, the offending near her house ten days earlier, the discarded implements, the admission she was in his car, given that information I WOULD GO LOOKING INTO THE PARK as my No1 place of suspicion that she came to harm in there. To then find out there was a scream heard, and a man seen running, that would instantly confirm to me that the narrative being plotted by all the evidence points so far was the correct assumption...

FUNDAMENTALLY:
* That PR went out of his way to pick Libby up in his car, take her to the park, and physically/sexually assault her.

Now here is where the major problem comes in. Here is where now this case is closed, and a case of a different nature is opened.

The case up to this point is predictable, it conforms to presented evidence and each stage has a natural lead or natural escalation to the next stage. Voyeurism; burglary; stalking; contact; assault; rape; murder; whether true or not, together they form a plausible narrative.

And then suddenly this randy young bloke who has carved a very clumsy clue riddled sexual criminal activity of a generic 20s something trying to lead a double life from his wife and kids; basically the guy was, apparently, an idiot in terms of conducting his affairs as a criminal mastermind, and seems to be on a course to be spoken to by the Police sooner or later...

..Is able to make a person/body disappear; not just disappear, but she disappears from the middle of a crime scene narrative. She is there, leaving signs and evidence, as humans do, in whatever seemingly innocuous ways...

Then she is simply not there.

what’s your gut feeling as you’ve been cycling the area. Do you feel LS is there in that area somewhere?

I am not being flippant here, but my answer to this question is honestly, after weighing up all the available evidence, the likeliest scenario is LS was lifted out of the park by helicopter. OBVIOUSLY I am not actually suggesting an actual real life helicopter should now be the focus of the investigation. No. I mean simply that according to Occam's Razor helicopter is what it appears. In metaphorical terms the search party has followed a set of footprints in the deep snow in to the middle of a field where they just stop.

So I spin round in the paradox - I am convinced she WAS in the park.

She is NOT in the pond.
She is NOT in that part of the river between the two bridges (Sutton Road and Stoneferry)

So she is either, as people have suggested, far downstream, possibly in the estuary or even out to sea.

Or

She was taken out of the park by other means. For this I have to 'pencil in' an accomplice. I find it inconceivable with his offending history and methods that he was able to do this himself and evade forensics and CID for 3+ weeks.

So, yeah, sorry, went on a bit on stream of consciousness.

Boiled down I find these inescapable;
* She WAS in the park
* She IS NOW NOT in the park
* PR had an accomplice

 

[Strontium69]

I dont like it Strontium.

Theres just no suggestion or evidence of any kind of network?

He's done what tens of thousands of his fellow nationals have done since the liberalisation of EU borders. Although the standard of living is lower in Poland, it's not 3rd world.

I understand he worked in a Beet factory before leaving Poland. Probably v low paid but a regular income nontheless?

If he applied himself at home like he seems to have done in the UK ( not clubbing/drinking at wkends etc) then not unthinkable to easily save enough for a flight or a ferry to the UK to look for a better life/income. I think you articulate this well in your own post. Worker..rents decent house..runs a car...family kids...dog...gym membership etc.

I 100% agree... I am 'exploring and wondering aloud' all possibilities, looking for probabilities.

The one thing about the Poles, is that they are an exceptionally hard working bunch! 10, 15 years ago if you went out at 4am, there'd be little huddles of people stood on street corners waiting for lifts to jobs in factories and fields; these were mainly Poles.

As I said, I have nothing but love for my winged hussar neighbours! And yes, it is a feature that the Poles who have come here have arrived with barely anything, and have worked and supported each other just through sheer hard work. I know a lot of Poles in Hull, I admire them.

HOWEVER as has been pointed out, there is a darker element that has crept in over the last couple of years; not just the Poles, every community. A lot of people who came to the UK came to get away from certain types, and have found that those bad types have lately followed them and are co-opting their networks. The bad English people are at it too - we are apparently getting a lot of Manchester gangs coming to Hull to tax Hull's dealers these days.

 

[Quintet]

I did give a break down a few pages ago of what I thought so far;

I'll go ahead and give you my 'Occam's Razor' view of this case. Presupposing that all the central evidence presented so far is relevant and that we take it at face value, there are a few inescapable 'features'.

1 - She refused Grey Beard's help, but she apparently got into PR's car willingly.
2 - PR possibly discarded a hammer, screw-driver and a lipstick from his car, yards from the spot she was last seen/known alive

I believe they drove to the anti-car park at the end of Beresford Avenue.

I cannot see ANY scenario where Libby staggers off drunk and ends up in the river. She would have to stagger slip and slide across 200 yards, before getting to a pitch black area obscuring the bank.

First, she's more likely in this scenario to be found next morning face down in the middle of the field somewhere. Second, she'd never negotiate the obstacles between the end of the path into the park and the river. She'd have to turn 45 degree left, negotiate a dog leg and avoid ending up in the abandoned boathouse compound, avoiding all the trees and brambles, climb UP THE STEEP BANK in the sheet ice, and fall into the river without leaving any traces in the mud or the reeds - or turn right, and stagger another 50 or more yards along the path, and then turn right and fall into the pond - (if she fell into the pond she would have been found on day one) - or turn left and negotiate the icy slipway up to the embankment, in pitch blackness. I tried this sober and completely lost my footing on this slipway in the dark and would have been snared in a bramble patch if the Police hadn't cleared them. By this point, you are blinded by the sharp lights of the factories across the river. If she fell into the river at any of these points I imagine A) marks in the mud (the river wasn't frozen) and B) traces of her fall through the reeds, even if she was swept away in a strong current.

The only other place really would be the drain at the back of her house, but they must have had a team of a dozen or so frogmen up and down that stretch in dinghies and wading in the water, using aquascopes. The one places they seemed to be seriously looking very early on was the drain, and I believe it was working on the assumption that she had fallen in drunk, either from the bridge on Beresford Avenue, or from the ten-foot round the back of her house.

So no, I cannot see anyone, no matter how wild and unkempt that park area appears, just falling down and lying undiscovered for three weeks and counting. It is very well trodden day and night all through the year. Between all the local kids and dog walkers there probably isn't an inch of the entire park area that ISN'T scoured and left undisturbed for long.

I rule out accident. I cannot see any scenario for that.

Therefore, I echo the Police - harm 'may' have come to Libby.

My problem with this case is it's transformation half way through. The case exhibits one set of characteristics, and then a completely different set. In Occam's Razor terms, the trail is definitely cold in the park. But like the Police, even though the trail is utterly cold, I believe the park is the thing. The key is in the park.

The screams and the running man, both fit in with the scope of the first half of the case, and also dovetails with PRs offending history. In that they fit the narrative established by PR's history and the activity around the bench, potential activity near her front door, potential implements discarded at the scene. (If PR had harmed Libby with these, of had just murdered her in the park, why would he discard these items that can be forensically linked to him BACK at the original scene?

However, once the narrative tries to move beyond the screams and the running man... there is nothing. At this point she could have been lifted out by helicopter, such is the nature of how suddenly and stone cold the trail goes.

The screams and running man both fit the narrative once we pre-plot PR's history in. Given the information of the pick-up at the bench, the offending near her house ten days earlier, the discarded implements, the admission she was in his car, given that information I WOULD GO LOOKING INTO THE PARK as my No1 place of suspicion that she came to harm in there. To then find out there was a scream heard, and a man seen running, that would instantly confirm to me that the narrative being plotted by all the evidence points so far was the correct assumption...

FUNDAMENTALLY:
* That PR went out of his way to pick Libby up in his car, take her to the park, and physically/sexually assault her.

Now here is where the major problem comes in. Here is where now this case is closed, and a case of a different nature is opened.

The case up to this point is predictable, it conforms to presented evidence and each stage has a natural lead or natural escalation to the next stage. Voyeurism; burglary; stalking; contact; assault; rape; murder; whether true or not, together they form a plausible narrative.

And then suddenly this randy young bloke who has carved a very clumsy clue riddled sexual criminal activity of a generic 20s something trying to lead a double life from his wife and kids; basically the guy was, apparently, an idiot in terms of conducting his affairs as a criminal mastermind, and seems to be on a course to be spoken to by the Police sooner or later...

..Is able to make a person/body disappear; not just disappear, but she disappears from the middle of a crime scene narrative. She is there, leaving signs and evidence, as humans do, in whatever seemingly innocuous ways...

Then she is simply not there.



I am not being flippant here, but my answer to this question is honestly, after weighing up all the available evidence, the likeliest scenario is LS was lifted out of the park by helicopter. OBVIOUSLY I am not actually suggesting an actual real life helicopter should now be the focus of the investigation. No. I mean simply that according to Occam's Razor helicopter is what it appears. In metaphorical terms the search party has followed a set of footprints in the deep snow in to the middle of a field where they just stop.

So I spin round in the paradox - I am convinced she WAS in the park.

She is NOT in the pond.
She is NOT in that part of the river between the two bridges (Sutton Road and Stoneferry)

So she is either, as people have suggested, far downstream, possibly in the estuary or even out to sea.

Or

She was taken out of the park by other means. For this I have to 'pencil in' an accomplice. I find it inconceivable with his offending history and methods that he was able to do this himself and evade forensics and CID for 3+ weeks.

So, yeah, sorry, went on a bit on stream of consciousness.

Boiled down I find these inescapable;
* She WAS in the park
* She IS NOW NOT in the park
* PR had an accomplice

Good to hear your views, much appreciated.

I was surprised how the hammer & screwdriver appeared to be dismissed so easily in the case.
I think the majority of burglars do not walk about with a tool bag, but, use tools available on site at the property, in sheds etc. On this note, I don’t expect students/young ladies in digs would have tools as in building type, so I thought it would be very feasible for someone that has a fetish/urge for entering these type of properties to strategically leave tools hidden in the locality. I hadn’t contemplated the thought that PR would’ve had them in his person in his vehicle.