GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Tortoise]

I think it's going to come back with no agreement of any kind (unanimous or majority) on the murder or manslaughter charges. I don't think the evidence is there for the level of certainty required.

If there's one thing I learned from jury service, with the choice we had of convicting one or two defendants on joint enterprise murder, it's the real burden of getting it right. It doesn't compare to the way we in the forum judge what evidence we hear about through court reporting, even if we think we're doing it as we would do if we had the juror's responsibility. The real responsibility kept me awake at night - which one did it and did the other one participate or was he just there? Life sentences in the offing for two young men.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the actual dilemma is not between murder and manslaughter, but between manslaughter, not proven (no verdict), and possibly not guilty.

How many have voted here for murder purely to keep a rapist off the streets for longer?

How many have voted for murder or manslaughter because Libby died and they want to see a punishment whether he had the intention for it or not?

I don't think either stance is reached by looking at the certainty of what he did that a jury is held to, so I don't think our opinions are necessarily a reflection of the jury split.

It is a massive responsibility and I think plenty of people here think he is not worthy of that consideration. If manslaughter is reached on the basis of different jury directions, ie intention is not a specific direction, then perhaps my prediction will prove to be wrong. Or I could just be wrong, full stop.

MOO

 

[ChiCubs2016]

I have voted for murder because the evidence I have seen makes me believe it is murder. I know we do not have direct evidence but for me there is enough to consider murder. It does not have anything to do with just wanted to keep a rapist of the street or because I do not think he is worthy of consideration. I have stated many times why I believe this so I will not bore you again. But understand 100% it is not because of my opinion of PR.

 

[NorthernSoul]

I think it's going to come back with no agreement of any kind (unanimous or majority) on the murder or manslaughter charges. I don't think the evidence is there for the level of certainty required.

If there's one thing I learned from jury service, with the choice we had of convicting one or two defendants on joint enterprise murder, it's the real burden of getting it right. It doesn't compare to the way we in the forum judge what evidence we hear about through court reporting, even if we think we're doing it as we would do if we had the juror's responsibility. The real responsibility kept me awake at night - which one did it and did the other one participate or was he just there? Life sentences in the offing for two young men.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the actual dilemma is not between murder and manslaughter, but between manslaughter, not proven (no verdict), and possibly not guilty.

How many have voted here for murder purely to keep a rapist off the streets for longer?

How many have voted for murder or manslaughter because Libby died and they want to see a punishment whether he had the intention for it or not?

I don't think either stance is reached by looking at the certainty of what he did that a jury is held to, so I don't think our opinions are necessarily a reflection of the jury split.

It is a massive responsibility and I think plenty of people here think he is not worthy of that consideration. If manslaughter is reached on the basis of different jury directions, ie intention is not a specific direction, then perhaps my prediction will prove to be wrong. Or I could just be wrong, full stop.

MOO

The longer it goes on and the more information the Jury is asking of the Judge it seems obvious that there is not agreement on a guilty of murder verdict and that there is more than one contentious area - the timings/walking man/screams and then the forensics or lack of. So I think it's going to be hard for them now having reached this stage to get everyone over to a guilty vote for murder. This is just my thought though - of course we can't know.

 

[Ruthbullock]

I think it's going to come back with no agreement of any kind (unanimous or majority) on the murder or manslaughter charges. I don't think the evidence is there for the level of certainty required.

If there's one thing I learned from jury service, with the choice we had of convicting one or two defendants on joint enterprise murder, it's the real burden of getting it right. It doesn't compare to the way we in the forum judge what evidence we hear about through court reporting, even if we think we're doing it as we would do if we had the juror's responsibility. The real responsibility kept me awake at night - which one did it and did the other one participate or was he just there? Life sentences in the offing for two young men.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the actual dilemma is not between murder and manslaughter, but between manslaughter, not proven (no verdict), and possibly not guilty.

How many have voted here for murder purely to keep a rapist off the streets for longer?

How many have voted for murder or manslaughter because Libby died and they want to see a punishment whether he had the intention for it or not?

I don't think either stance is reached by looking at the certainty of what he did that a jury is held to, so I don't think our opinions are necessarily a reflection of the jury split.

It is a massive responsibility and I think plenty of people here think he is not worthy of that consideration. If manslaughter is reached on the basis of different jury directions, ie intention is not a specific direction, then perhaps my prediction will prove to be wrong. Or I could just be wrong, full stop.

MOO

Thanks for your honesty and you sum up my feelings (and thankfully I have never been on jury service), I would be an awful person to be on a jury as I understand those that have eloquently explained their differing opinions as well. I’d be the pain in the ... who sits on the fence and just can’t decide!!!!

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Thanks for your honesty and you sum up my feelings (and thankfully I have never been on jury service), I would be an awful person to be on a jury as I understand those that have eloquently explained their differing opinions as well. I’d be the pain in the ... who sits on the fence and just can’t decide!!!!

I would be a PIA as well. I have been called but never picked. I think because the universe is saving the 11 other people that would have to deal with me!

 

[C.greek]

I have no idea how I would be as a juror! I don't feel like I let my sentiments guide me though but I am very stubborn... in this particular case I would only be split between murder and manslaughter because
1. there is no clear evidence she drowned which could have been had that been the case - and this was reinforced today that I saw the complete statement from Dr L.
2. SA's statement yesterday that clearly identified a man hurriedly getting out of the park at the convenient time just after Libby was being raped/dying or dead.
3. because I do not see any evidence supporting the fact that Libby ended up in water in her own. I see the opposite indications, that she could not easily do it.
4. PR's third visit was always a fact that reinforced his guilt imo.
5. A dangerous sexual predator 'just' leaving his victim safe and well who just happened to end up in the river where he had conveniently taken her close to... and then he just cared for her and went to check on her...

I think he is guilty and I am glad the jurors asked about these 2 statements to be reread. They have clarified my thoughts a lot.

 

[C.greek]

The judges directions are very important...its her job to take the evidence and condense it and direct the jurors on the important parts ...why would she specifically from all the pathologist report highlight this if there was more to be gleened from it

Sorry but I strongly disagree.. there are lots of pieces of evidence in the trial you can use to take inferences from ....the pathologist expert opinion isn't one of them ...hence the the judges direction on his evidence

Once you start taking inferences from this type of evidence you are stepping into the realms of bias unfortunately

I find it very very interesting that the jury asked to hear again the pathologist's report, don't you? If they just took the word of the judge that it was inconclusive and nothing can be gleaned from it they surely wouldn't need to hear it again. Jmo

ETA this is the first trial I follow on WS and based on what you said above I find it all the more intriguing that they specifically requested the post-mortem and Dr L's statement

 

[Ruthbullock]

I find it very very interesting that the jury asked to hear again the pathologist's report, don't you? If they just took the word of the judge that it was inconclusive and nothing can be gleaned from it they surely wouldn't need to hear it again. Jmo

I think they have possibly been through every discussion once and are now going back through, once sharing all opinions, then using those opinions to examine specific areas that have caused contention.

 

[C.greek]

I think they have possibly been through every discussion once and are now going back through, once sharing all opinions, then using those opinions to examine specific areas that have caused contention.

Yes I agree! But if they followed only the judge's guiding they wouldn't need to reexamine the pathologist's report since the judge told them it is inconclusive! This is what I find extremely intriguing!

 

[Ruthbullock]

Anyone who has been on an English jury- do you have certain evidence/statements that you take into the deliberation room, or are you reliant on notes and memory?

 

[C.greek]

Anyone who has been on an English jury- do you have certain evidence/statements that you take into the deliberation room, or are you reliant on notes and memory?

Yes that's a good qs. I was wondering about that as well. I was under the impression they were given the trial files but it appears this is not the case.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I thought they were given a jury bundle/pack. But I dont know what would be included (could hazard a guess).

 

[C.greek]

I thought they were given a jury bundle/pack. But I dont know what would be included (could hazard a guess).

I saw evidence numbers being mentioned. Could that be what they get? Like a numbered list of evidence and artefacts, but no notes/full statements?

 

[tedtink]

How many have voted for murder or manslaughter because Libby died and they want to see a punishment whether he had the intention for it or not?

It is a massive responsibility and I think plenty of people here think he is not worthy of that consideration.

That's a very unfair generalisation of folk posting on this forum imo.
We've gone over and over minute details for weeks and are all working towards justice.
We're here with a common goal in mind, it's been a little fraught at times, but divisive statements and assumptions like that don't really help.

 

[JosieJo]

I find it very very interesting that the jury asked to hear again the pathologist's report, don't you? If they just took the word of the judge that it was inconclusive and nothing can be gleaned from it they surely wouldn't need to hear it again. Jmo

ETA this is the first trial I follow on WS and based on what you said above I find it all the more intriguing that they specifically requested the post-mortem and Dr L's statement

What i think may have happened is ...as in all walks of life ...as on this thread ..there is a split in what the jury feel is proved ...especially after 3 days deliberating people will automatically look for snippets to support their theory...no matter what the judge tells them.
Its possible these differing of opinions and selective focusing on points that suit them has led to the jury asking the judge to recap the evidence to try and help with this

 

[C.greek]

That's a very unfair generalisation of folk posting on this forum imo.
We've gone over and over minute details for weeks and are all working towards justice.
We're here with a common goal in mind, it's been a little fraught at times, but divisive statements of assumptions like that don't really help.

Agreed! I don't want PR to be convicted just because he happens to be a dangerous sexual predator - he has already gotten 8.5 years for this. And I think we have all tried to explain our thinking, and spend hours going through minute details... yes not all of us are always eloquent and we might seem abrupt but nobody here pretends to play batman's role (is that an expression used in English?!)

Where can we find again the poll?

 

[tedtink]

Agreed! I don't want PR to be convicted just because he happens to be a dangerous sexual predator - he has already gotten 8.5 years for this. And I think we have all tried to explain our thinking, and spend hours going through minute details... yes not all of us are always eloquent and we might seem abrupt but nobody here pretends to play batman's role (is that an expression used in English?!)

Where can we find again the poll?

It's here

VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

 

[tigerowl]

I asked this before and someone kindly posted it, but if you are searching, WHERE do you find the poll??

 

[C.greek]

What i think may have happened is ...as in all walks of life ...as on this thread ..there is a split in what the jury feel is proved ...especially after 3 days deliberating people will automatically look for snippets to support their theory...no matter what the judge tells them.
Its possible these differing of opinions and selective focusing on points that suit them has led to the jury asking the judge to recap the evidence to try and help with this

has the jury then disregarded the judge's guidance? Or wasn't her guidance so clear?

 

[tedtink]

I asked this before and someone kindly posted it, but if you are searching, WHERE do you find the poll??

Search in the search box top right hand side of this page.
Search 'Poll'
Then put Tortoise in the 'by member' section.