GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

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C.greek said:
Yes I agree! But if they followed only the judge's guiding they wouldn't need to reexamine the pathologist's report since the judge told them it is inconclusive! This is what I find extremely intriguing!
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Me too. We've only had the briefest of overviews of it but I think he will have had an opinion on most likely and will, hopefully, have used language to convey it
 
JosieJo said:
What i think may have happened is ...as in all walks of life ...as on this thread ..there is a split in what the jury feel is proved ...especially after 3 days deliberating people will automatically look for snippets to support their theory...no matter what the judge tells them.
Its possible these differing of opinions and selective focusing on points that suit them has led to the jury asking the judge to recap the evidence to try and help with this
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If they're looking for snippets to support their theory then they shouldn't be on a jury IMO.

No one piece of evidence or snippet will get to the truth. The idea is to build a coherent whole picture of the evening.

Look at everything from uses of language from experts, to prior offending thru to behaviour afterwards to what is likely in the real world to what is a credible alternative explanation.

There should be no personal prejudices in a jury and no snippets. It has to be on everything IMO
 
Newthoughts said:
If they're looking for snippets to support their theory then they shouldn't be on a jury IMO.

No one piece of evidence or snippet will get to the truth. The idea is to build a coherent whole picture of the evening.

Look at everything from uses of language from experts, to prior offending thru to behaviour afterwards to what is likely in the real world to what is a credible alternative explanation.

There should be no personal prejudices in a jury and no snippets. It has to be on everything IMO
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I agree .. but when you look at a cross section of people...this thread as an example..people can take different bits of information and over think their relevance or ignore other bits..not always consciously..confirmation bias imo is more likely to rear its head the longer deliberations carry on
Its not a criticism its a natural phenomenon

Moo its why the judges summing up and direction is so important...because hopefully in such a situation id turn to the judges directions to keep me in check so to speak
 
The jury in the Libby Squire murder trial is today set to begin it's sixth day of talks as they decide verdicts against Pawel Relowicz, the Hull butcher accused of her rape and killing.

The jury at Sheffield Crown Court was sent out last Thursday after two weeks of evidence at Sheffield Crown Court.

The Crown say Relowicz lured or forced a distressed and freezing Libby to a remote part of Oak Road Playing Fields before attacking her and pushing her body into the River Hull.

Relowicz admits meeting Libby but claims the pair had sex before he left her distressed and alone in the park.

Live updates from our reporter in court will appear in the blog below.
Libby Squire trial live as jury deliberate murder and rape charges
 
Tortoise said:
I think it's going to come back with no agreement of any kind (unanimous or majority) on the murder or manslaughter charges. I don't think the evidence is there for the level of certainty required.

If there's one thing I learned from jury service, with the choice we had of convicting one or two defendants on joint enterprise murder, it's the real burden of getting it right. It doesn't compare to the way we in the forum judge what evidence we hear about through court reporting, even if we think we're doing it as we would do if we had the juror's responsibility. The real responsibility kept me awake at night - which one did it and did the other one participate or was he just there? Life sentences in the offing for two young men.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the actual dilemma is not between murder and manslaughter, but between manslaughter, not proven (no verdict), and possibly not guilty.

How many have voted here for murder purely to keep a rapist off the streets for longer?

How many have voted for murder or manslaughter because Libby died and they want to see a punishment whether he had the intention for it or not?

I don't think either stance is reached by looking at the certainty of what he did that a jury is held to, so I don't think our opinions are necessarily a reflection of the jury split.

It is a massive responsibility and I think plenty of people here think he is not worthy of that consideration. If manslaughter is reached on the basis of different jury directions, ie intention is not a specific direction, then perhaps my prediction will prove to be wrong. Or I could just be wrong, full stop.

MOO
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This is an interesting viewpoint Tortoise

It get's way more up close and personal.
 
My main problem with trying to get detailed on timings etc, is my experience of other cases is that the court reporting tends to be quite poor compared with the detailed evidence, where we can compare both.

Court reporters have a hard job, but IMO they tend to focus on big quotes from counsel and not the detail of the evidence, because unlike us, they aren't sitting here open sourcing the evidence and working up ideas - they are more tweeting or live commenting as they go.

IMO the HDM coverage is a typical standard and as expected, but compared to tricky cases like Pistorius where we could create our own detailed timeline, we are working on potted summaries rather than the foundational detail.

@Tortoise remember those critical bits of evidence we found about feeding the dogs in McStay? You'll never get that from a Court reporter but for me, it was one of the nails in the coffin for guilt.

Especially tricky is we don't have the exhibits. We now there are maps and stuff. We've never seen them and can only guess at what they show.
 
JosieJo said:
I agree .. but when you look at a cross section of people...this thread as an example..people can take different bits of information and over think their relevance or ignore other bits..not always consciously..confirmation bias imo is more likely to rear its head the longer deliberations carry on
Its not a criticism its a natural phenomenon

Moo its why the judges summing up and direction is so important...because hopefully in such a situation id turn to the judges directions to keep me in check so to speak
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People do I totally agree. But I think it's really wrong because no one piece of evidence on it's own is sufficient. It's value can only be judged in context. It's very hard to look at PR and not hate him but that in itself doesn't make him guilty. I think all the evidence does

If you just took spidercam for example. You could not say that was Libby beyond all doubt.

But you add the other CCTV and the witness statements confirming her location at the end of that street

Then you sequence the man stalking her with PR getting out of his car (something else confirmed by additional info). And lastly her watch - you become sure beyond reasonable doubt it is her. It's not 100% certainty but no reasonable person would doubt it

The only reason nobody doubts the rape is because we know how vulnerable she was and we know his past offending and we know it wasn't an accidental encounter on his way back from Sainsburys

I don't think it is just the judges summing up either because they cannot risk a retrial.

I think expert witnesses in particular should be listened to very, very carefully but that could be because my background is more science so I've kind of gotten more used to the issues between probable and proven beyond all doubt. And how they tailor language to present that. And also am more used to the fact that nobody can ever really be 100% certain.

The article that @bos posted was really good on that

If I take into account everything - nothing I've seen supports misadventure. A lot supports murder.
 
Newthoughts said:
People do I totally agree. But I think it's really wrong because no one piece of evidence on it's own is sufficient. It's value can only be judged in context. It's very hard to look at PR and not hate him but that in itself doesn't make him guilty. I think all the evidence does

If you just took spidercam for example. You could not say that was Libby beyond all doubt.

But you add the other CCTV and the witness statements confirming her location at the end of that street

Then you sequence the man stalking her with PR getting out of his car (something else confirmed by additional info). And lastly her watch - you become sure beyond reasonable doubt it is her. It's not 100% certainty but no reasonable person would doubt it

The only reason nobody doubts the rape is because we know how vulnerable she was and we know his past offending and we know it wasn't an accidental encounter on his way back from Sainsburys

I don't think it is just the judges summing up either because they cannot risk a retrial.

I think expert witnesses in particular should be listened to very, very carefully but that could be because my background is more science so I've kind of gotten more used to the issues between probable and proven beyond all doubt. And how they tailor language to present that. And also am more used to the fact that nobody can ever really be 100% certain.

The article that @bos posted was really good on that

If I take into account everything - nothing I've seen supports misadventure. A lot supports murder.
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I agree totally in a case like this it will absolutely be lots of pieces put together that will solve the puzzle..for me personally those pieces of evidence can get me to "be sure" of the prosecution case all the way up to rape occuring towards the back of the fields.
After that I can't be sure if he killed her and/or put her in the river or walked away and left her there in an extremely vulnerable situation..thats where I'm at and no matter how many pieces of info I take into account or which scenario is most likely, for me misadventure from that point of the prosecution case in the Park is still possible...leaving some doubt
 
Innocent until proven guilty is a common phrase but, also a not guilty verdict doesn't mean that a person did not commit the crime of which they're accused... it merely means that there wasn't enough evidence to prove it.

In Scotland they have an alternative verdict of 'Not proven' which means that the jury thinks they're guilty but, it can't be proven by evidence alone.

Interesting :)
 
10:13
No weather issues

The trial has been delayed three times due to snow since it began.

The country has been in the grip of another cold snap this week but there have been no delays as the jury continue to deliberate.

As you can see from the picture, there are no issues with snow in Sheffield today.

0_sheff-court.jpg


Libby Squire trial live as jury deliberate murder and rape charges
 
JosieJo said:
I agree totally in a case like this it will absolutely be lots of pieces put together that will solve the puzzle..for me personally those pieces of evidence can get me to "be sure" of the prosecution case all the way up to rape occuring towards the back of the fields.
After that I can't be sure if he killed her and/or put her in the river or walked away and left her there in an extremely vulnerable situation..thats where I'm at and no matter how many pieces of info I take into account or which scenario is most likely, for me misadventure from that point of the prosecution case in the Park is still possible...leaving some doubt
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And out of curiosity how have you reconciled that with the later evidence of PRs behaviour and the earlier evidence of Libby's state? And the fact PRs defence leaves her on Oak Road? Genuine question.

The whole thing is important. Including what lies and why. He's not stupid
 
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