UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[Ruthbullock]

We do not know what the jury have been shown.In most cases they are taken on a site visit. I presume due to Covid that has not happened,but I would imagine they have been given a remote tour.
We have only had very scant reports back from the journalists in court.

I’m not sure how skimpy the reporting has been, whilst it hasn’t been packed full of details, it’s been consistently reported throughout the case, there hasn’t been a missing morning or afternoon where no reporting happened. The case was allocated four weeks- the prosecution case was over and done with in 4 days- this is either due to some concrete evidence and confidence in the evidence produced, or no more evidence available to discuss. I think a remote tour reconstruction would have been reported- even in only this basic form with no more details.

 

[Legally Bland]

Did it ever get explained what Libbys day was like before she got refused entry at Welly? She must of been drinking a long time to get in that state.

There's a bit of info:

11:03
Flat mate speaks about the night Libby vanished
Amelia says “everything was completely normal” the week before Libby vanished.

She said: “She didn’t appear to have anything worrying her. I had no reason to suspect there was anything wrong with her.”

Amelia says on January 31, her and Libby returned home after university and during that afternoon they messaged each other about going out.

She said: “About 7.30pm we started getting ready. We were all looking forward to going out. Two friends came to our house and I was driving to our friend Josh’s house on Cromer Street as it was really cold."

Libby Squire murder and rape trial updates week two

11:05
Libby had 'bottle of wine and a vodka and coke'
Amelia says the group stayed in Cromer Street until 11pm.

She said Libby had a full bottle of Rose wine and a vodka and coke at Cromer Street and they “were all having a good time.”

“Libby was really funny, laughing and genuinely enjoying herself”, Amelia added.

Amelia said Libby was “struggling walking” and when she tried to help her she grew agitated.

She said: “This is like Libby when she was drunk as she doesn’t like accepting help.”

Libby Squire murder and rape trial updates week two

11:09
Moment Libby refused entry to Welly
Amelia said the group went to the Well nightclub on Beverley Road but Libby was refused entry. Amelia said she “wasn’t angry” and said she would walk home. She says Libby had been refused entry for “being too drunk” at other events.

Amelia said she called a taxi for Libby and was told a cab was just dropping off and their other flatmate, Chloe, was talking to a taxi driver that had just pulled up.

Amelia said she told Libby to put her seatbelt on.

She said: “Chloe paid the taxi driver and we saw them drive away.

“That was the last time I saw her.

“We went to Welly and we continued our night, drinking, dancing and having fun."

Libby Squire murder and rape trial updates week two

UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #18

 

[Newthoughts]

Theres a few different gates on the front of Beresford park and a house on the park aswell as the back of the houses. Id say the area he would of committed the killing has to be (if he did it) up near the river if he was to dump her in the river, its unlikely he could of dragged or carried her through the park, up the bit to the river, put her in the river - in the darkenss and get out of there.

If he killed her it was at the back end near the pond - thats the only way he would have time to put her in the river, or if he went back and put her in then. Did it ever get explained what Libbys day was like before she got refused entry at Welly? She must of been drinking a long time to get in that state.

Yes early on in the case from her friends.

She was laughing and joking and funny at the party according to her friend. She had a lot to drink and it sounds like the fresh air hitting her when they went to go to the club might have made it more obvious. That happens to me. She'd spoken to her long term boyfriend at 10.30. She'd discussed the following days lecture with a fellow student as well.

All signs life was good

Yes she'd drank a lot but apart from increasing the effects of cold the only relevance it has is in making it rape beyond all doubt. She was heading towards her streey when PR intercepted her.

Shortly after that her friend was driving around looking for her

 

[JosieJo]

Probably not.

Forgive me for this stupid example but it is just to try and illustrate a potential problem - the prosecution could stage it with Usain Bolt the defence with Captain Tom Moore. I know they would try to match for age but even then the other side could argue the toss about state of mind and relative fitness.

Personally I do not see a real problem with timing. My friend had a very lucky escape when someone attacked her in daylight in a park. She said one minute she was walking past a man next she was on the floor with her pants off before she had time to realise what was happening. Luckily a dog walkers dog was snuffling in and barked and she screamed fire for some reason and he ran off. But basically that much was so quick she hardly realised it was happening.

I would have to disagree as if the prosecution and defence didn't recreate similar circumstances...eg height weight age it would be pointless and the jury would see through that...if the prosecution seriously think its doable they could have shown it imo

All the jury need is to see its doable

 

[Winterbells]

Sorry if this has already been answered I haven't fully caught up.
In Hull there is a centralised CCTV system across the city (i forget the name now) i believe its run by the council or at least contracted ny them.

These cameras are mounted on high poles, perhaps 20/30 ft in the air, they are highly visible to anyone around and they move in different directions. There is one on the Beverley road/Cottingham Road junction that I believe captured much of the far off (red/green arrow) footage of Libby. I think this is the camera he was talking about and I don't think there is anything strange or unusual in him noticing it or knowing it was there. They are meant to be visible, much like a deterrent. They are also monitored 24 hours in an office in the city centre.

ETA link
Hull's creaking CCTV network set for a £400,000 revamp

Thanks @Mommysleuth11 I see. I'm wondering if there's a camera on Beresford Avenue. It's odd to me that he refers to there being a 'camera there' (I think that's what he said?) or just 'I know there's a camera' when he talks about his 3rd visit to ORPF if he's referring to the cameras on Beverley Road.

 

[mrazda71]

Especially as he had a bath before hand

And watched *advertiser censored* while in the bath I think?

 

[Officer Dibble]

2pm start today in court

Thank you for that information.

 

[Newthoughts]

I would have to disagree as if the prosecution and defence didn't recreate similar circumstances...eg height weight age it would be pointless and the jury would see through that...if the prosecution seriously think its doable they could have shown it imo

I have two children of similar build etc. Especially if you matched them at the same age - they'd look well matched.

One ran for the county at school and played netball and hockey at uni. The other is a couch potato. I'd say there would be a difference if you tried to match them

You cannot recreate adrenaline.

I still see less of a problem with timing than with Libby getting into that river to a point where she wouldn't snag on a bend (from the videos taken by Strontium earlier on). She could barely walk on a flat pavement and the expert opinion is against her being able to run away - so where would be the sufficient momentum to get into the river that far?

And there is the fact that PR was not scared of leaving a DNA sample later on. Seems very confident he wouldn't be linked to a rape or murder.

 

[Legally Bland]

When it gets to 2m 20s place particular attention ... my daughter videoed it playing on my phone and zoomed in with her phone and its easier to see. (The things we do!)

It's after the wall hugger crosses over and herds Libby in the opposite direction to where she going - home!

Final moments of Libby Squire as CCTV shows 'killer stalking uni student'

I think this is the bit you mean:

 

[JosieJo]

I have two children of similar build etc. Especially if you matched them at the same age - they'd look well matched.

One ran for the county at school and played netball and hockey at uni. The other is a couch potato. I'd say there would be a difference if you tried to match them

You cannot recreate adrenaline.

I still see less of a problem with timing than with Libby getting into that river to a point where she wouldn't snag on a bend (from the videos taken by Strontium earlier on). She could barely walk on a flat pavement and the expert opinion is against her being able to run away - so where would be the sufficient momentum to get into the river that far?

And there is the fact that PR was not scared of leaving a DNA sample later on. Seems very confident he wouldn't be linked to a rape or murder.

Many people do see the timing as a problem though I suspect even the prosecution themselves and it follows that at least some of the jury do

Of course its never going to be exact..all that needs to be shown is its roughly do able by an average man ...adrenaline and slight variations the jury could handle if they could just visualise the scene

 

[Newthoughts]

I think this is the bit you mean:

I also think it looks like he's pulling her and she's trying to resist

 

[Tortoise]

Re people concerns with the timing.

Back in the pre covid summer of 2019 when we could still go to beaches and relax - my lazy daughter saw the tide was out and settled down to sunbathe instead. Her boyfriend then picked her up and ran to sea with her and dumped her in. It didn't take very long at all.

Admittedly it was daylight but she wasn't drunk or hypothermic and sand is not easy to walk on. Tho she was laughing not screaming she was wriggling. And she is pretty much the same age as Libby.

PR was bulky, filled with adrenaline and ready for action. He'd been to that park already hadn't he.

Libby was slight, drunk and hypothermic and probably taken totally by surprised.

We have to bear in mind that there was no screaming between 12:14 and at least 12:15, but then the screaming started. I know the witness could have been woken by screaming and not registered what had woken him up, but my point is that if he'd carried Libby from the car to the river the screaming that was heard started over 4 minutes later. That minute of quietness between 12:14-12:15 ,and possibly from 12:11 to 12:14, suggests to me that there could have been a period where she was trying to be quiet, hiding. I think she'd have been screaming continuously if he was carrying her all the way through the park to the water's edge.

Perhaps he did rape her near the car and she was too petrified to scream. Then as he's picked her up (12:15) and carried her to the river she's started screaming and screams constantly until he gets her to the water's edge. He needs to have left the river to get back to the car at a fast walk I'd guess at about 12:17, so with her ability to scream between 12:15 and 12:17 (I'm ignoring the 4 - 7 minutes of screaming reported) would he have put her down to 'gently' asphyxiate her at the water's edge before making his escape?

There are too many unknown variables in my scenarios but we have to be guided I think by what the witness with the phone heard and didn't hear, to try to eliminate some scenarios. The minute of silence before screams is most puzzling, perhaps that was during the rape while Libby is using her energy not to scream but to fight and scratch him. But that suggests she got into the park under her own steam, which would have been at a slower more staggered pace, and it also suggests he didn't asphyxiate her during the rape, because she could scream afterwards.

 

[JosieJo]

I think this is the bit you mean:

I think him pulling her is a possibility..its difficult to say as when she is seen on her own she is also zigzagging...he could be ushering her along with him

 

[Skigh]

I’m not sure how skimpy the reporting has been, whilst it hasn’t been packed full of details, it’s been consistently reported throughout the case, there hasn’t been a missing morning or afternoon where no reporting happened. The case was allocated four weeks- the prosecution case was over and done with in 4 days- this is either due to some concrete evidence and confidence in the evidence produced, or no more evidence available to discuss. I think a remote tour reconstruction would have been reported- even in only this basic form with no more details.

I agree there have not been missed sessions but sometimes there have been only a couple of short updates for a couple of hours court proceedings. I remember in some cases the updates coming in thick and fast ,and from two or so different journalists +some Twitter updates.
By the way ,I really enjoyed your well thought out theories in the Nora case, what do you think happened to Libby that night?

 

[sundaaaay]

Without a shadow of doubt LS was raped but whether she was killed or ran into the river trying to escape from PR is the question. What I keep coming back to, is whether or not someone with that level of alcohol in their system could run from the car to the river. She wasn’t steady on her legs on the cctv, and she was brought to the park only minutes later.

 

[Newthoughts]

Many people do see the timing as a problem though I suspect even the prosecution themselves and it follows that at least some of the jury do

Of course its never going to be exact..all that needs to be shown is its roughly do able by an average man ...adrenaline and slight variations the jury could handle if they could just visualise the scene

Indeed but in that time we know he has has time to rape her - an act quite consistent with subtle asphyxiation.

So whatever has happened there you have weigh the risks to him of leaving her lying there, alive or dead, raped with your DNA evidence which is already in a police database - or just throwing her into a river.

He's already been to that park. He's taken her back to that park. Why there? Even if there - why not in the car?

 

[Newthoughts]

Without a shadow of doubt LS was raped but whether she was killed or ran into the river trying to escape from PR is the question. What I keep coming back to, is whether or not someone with that level of alcohol in their system could run from the car to the river. She wasn’t steady on her legs on the cctv, and she was brought to the park only minutes later.

Abd there is an expert witness who adds that she was probably a bit hypothermic which would also have impaired her ability to run away.

 

[JosieJo]

We have to bear in mind that there was no screaming between 12:14 and at least 12:15, but then the screaming started. I know the witness could have been woken by screaming and not registered what had woken him up, but my point is that if he'd carried Libby from the car to the river the screaming that was heard started over 4 minutes later. That minute of quietness between 12:14-12:15 ,and possibly from 12:11 to 12:14, suggests to me that there could have been a period where she was trying to be quiet, hiding. I think she'd have been screaming continuously if he was carrying her all the way through the park to the water's edge.

Perhaps he did rape her near the car and she was too petrified to scream. Then as he's picked her up (12:15) and carried her to the river she's started screaming and screams constantly until he gets her to the water's edge. He needs to have left the river to get back to the car at a fast walk I'd guess at about 12:17, so with her ability to scream between 12:15 and 12:17 (I'm ignoring the 4 - 7 minutes of screaming reported) would he have put her down to 'gently' asphyxiate her at the water's edge before making his escape?

There are too many unknown variables in my scenarios but we have to be guided I think by what the witness with the phone heard and didn't hear, to try to eliminate some scenarios. The minute of silence before screams is most puzzling, perhaps that was during the rape while Libby is using her energy not to scream but to fight and scratch him. But that suggests she got into the park under her own steam, which would have been at a slower more staggered pace, and it also suggests he didn't asphyxiate her during the rape, because she could scream afterwards.

Yes thats a good point ..he may have raped her near the car and he is denying that somehow he took her into the park

Will be interesting to hear how relevant and credible the prosecution scream witnesses are and if it fits at all with the possibility of her being alive after he left

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I’d be really interested to know whether Libby was familiar with the playing fields. Had she been before, chilled out with her mates by the river, did she know the river was there?

Her mum said she was scared of water - especially moving water iirc - so I can’t imagine she’d have knowingly gone in that direction if she knew the river was right in front of her.

 

[sundaaaay]

Timing seems short to day the least but it all seems to have happened very quickly alright, but as someone mentioned above, don’t forget adrenaline. I see it more likely the screams began once she realised what was happening and they stopped because PW underestimated LS and she fought back and began to scream so he decided to silence her.

I’d be really interested to know whether Libby was familiar with the playing fields. Had she been before, chilled out with her mates by the river, did she know the river was there?

Her mum said she was scared of water - especially moving water iirc - so I can’t imagine she’d have knowingly gone in that direction if she knew the river was right in front of her.

I think she may have been so drunk she might not have even known where she really was and it’s so dark there at night. I’d say there was a lot of confusion alright.