UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[elliefant]

Did the pathologist present this to the jury as an explanation, do we know?

I don’t think he did in those words (that was reported anyway) but he could not rule out drowning in some way. Of course we know he couldn’t rule out other causes of death either. The reporting is a bit skimpy but it seemed to me the defence was pushing him harder re possibility of drowning and the expert was assertive in his reply that he couldn’t say drowning was likely any more than he could say that of any other potential cause of death.

Sorry, bit rambly and doesn’t answer question really. I feel quite stymied by scanty reporting

 

[Newthoughts]

Thank you very much, I found this really helpful. The river looks very difficult to get out of in the relevant place

And equally difficult to get into.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Did the pathologist present this to the jury as an explanation, do we know?

In a roundabout way I think he did, he didn’t name specifics though, but I could infer that’s possible from his comments.

The pathologist said in Libby’s case the findings were not typical of drowning and Libby’s body showed no changes typical of hypothermia.

However, Mr Wright did tell the jury that this did not mean that Libby did not drown or was not hypothermic, but that those changes were not present during the examination.

Libby Squire murder trial: 'Not possible' to know how Hull student died

 

[Newthoughts]

Have I missed something? Why would the police already have his DNA on file ?

Because of his previous offences going back three years. He'd left condoms and his calling card on doors quite often. So once they had his DNA from his arrest they'd have been able to match them to those crimes

What they didn't have, unfortunately, was a way of matching his DNA to a specific individual untill that day.

 

[jamjim]

13:53
Trial set to resume on Day 9
Day 8 proved a dramatic day on Monday with Pawel Relowicz taking the stand.

He was questioned by his defence team where he admitted he was "looking for a woman to have sex" when he found Libby while driving around the student area of Hull on the night she disappeared.

Later, he also admitted he had sex with Libby at Oak Road but insisted it was consensual and he left her there alive.

The trial did not sit this morning but will resume this afternoon. Relowicz will take to the stand once more this afternoon and continue giving evidence.

Pawel quizzed by prosecutors as he returns to the witness box

 

[jamjim]

13:59

Trial ready to resume
Justice Lambert is now sitting, the jury has been called up. An interpreter is waiting by the witness box for Relowicz to enter the court.

Pawel quizzed by prosecutors as he returns to the witness box

 

[Corneileus]

And equally difficult to get into.

equally difficult to get into - not a chance. Go for a ride down there, if its high tide aswell, you can just walk straight in but youve got very little chance of getting out unless your very fit and maybe even a survival expert, also the shock of the cold water - very cold plus the current. Id say - no problem getting in - no chance getting out. My mates have boats up at wilfolme, google earth it youll see the cabins and the boats moored. Ive swam in there in summer the last few years, im only amatuer but i can tell ye i cant last very long and cant get out without the pontoon. Nothing equal about getting in and out of that river.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

How much alcohol...and after 7 weeks in the river...thats going to be really hard to be accurate. it is possible that the decomposition would seriously affect the accuracy of the pathology findings? yes? no? Im not sure but, dead bodies are black and blown up like balloons after 11 days in a living room i know that. 7 weeks in the river...hmmm Must of been a lot of alcohol, all day maybe or all afternoon. I was wondering what her state of mind may have been, if it was just alcohol it must have been a substantial amount.

I might aswell mention the hypothermia - should then A and E at Hull Royal be full of females (due to the wearing very little clothing in very cold temps) every weekend wouldnt it - with hypothermia. Read the diagnosis for hypothermia. It would be more likely the alcohol (possibly other? aswell) affecting her judgement than hypothermia.
When did libby get the Hypothermia? It cant be guessed surely.

Adding to this and its not suggestions its questions and I dont feel any need to catch up..The specialist who talks about Libby surviving in the River and that she could of survived upto half an hour - yet she already had hypothermia. He suggested the water to be no more than 10 degrees. Im telling ya its Freezing cold in the summer. If she went in the river in a mess already, that time of night and time of year, the shock could of killed her in 30 seconds - and she wouldnt of drowned. That river is not 10 degrees in feburay no way.

I am going to take the word of the experts as they have had lots of education and experience in this field. I have none. That is why experts are called to testify.

 

[Zazie]

And remember she doesn't just have to fall in. She has to go in far enough to not get caught on banks as it twists. The police started searching there very early on. A much earlier post had a really good video of the river where they were searching. IMO it would be difficult to disappear at the point. She has to travel past lots of bends and banks and then closer to the time centre where the river is tidal she has to remain unseen. In the town centre - yes it would be easier but not there IMOO

What were you thinking then Newthoughts - that she enters the Hull downstream or at the Humber? No CCTV released so far seems to support Relowicz transporting a body by car to dispose of it elsewhere? I wonder if the prosecution will invite an expert on tides and currents to the stand.

 

[Newthoughts]

How much alcohol...and after 7 weeks in the river...thats going to be really hard to be accurate. it is possible that the decomposition would seriously affect the accuracy of the pathology findings? yes? no? Im not sure but, dead bodies are black and blown up like balloons after 11 days in a living room i know that. 7 weeks in the river...hmmm Must of been a lot of alcohol, all day maybe or all afternoon. I was wondering what her state of mind may have been, if it was just alcohol it must have been a substantial amount.

I might aswell mention the hypothermia - should then A and E at Hull Royal be full of females (due to the wearing very little clothing in very cold temps) every weekend wouldnt it - with hypothermia. Read the diagnosis for hypothermia. It would be more likely the alcohol (possibly other? aswell) affecting her judgement than hypothermia.
When did libby get the Hypothermia? It cant be guessed surely.

Adding to this and its not suggestions its questions and I dont feel any need to catch up..The specialist who talks about Libby surviving in the River and that she could of survived upto half an hour - yet she already had hypothermia. He suggested the water to be no more than 10 degrees. Im telling ya its Freezing cold in the summer. If she went in the river in a mess already, that time of night and time of year, the shock could of killed her in 30 seconds - and she wouldnt of drowned. That river is not 10 degrees in feburay no way.

I think it is worth seeing what the experts have says. 198 mg alcohol per 100 ml blood. No drugs. I'm a chemistry teacher you have to do something to break down alcohol. Libby's body could no longer do that. Likewise many other substances. So while Libby's body was there, it could be tested.

Expert critical care professor estimated her core body temperature had dropped to about 35 degrees c which is nowhere near death but would certainly impact on her ability to run away.

As for the river temp - the science is there for you to check.

Plus they are experts and we are not.

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

I and others can see her outstretched arm clinging on to the illuminated bus shelter and his outstretched arm holding onto her other arm pulling (he looks to crouch a little to add weight to the pull) then her being yanked off the shelter.

I'm not sure I'd consider that 'ushering' IMO

He does crouch and is pulling her in that footage. She definately looks to be resisting going with him. MOO

 

[Newthoughts]

equally difficult to get into - not a chance. Go for a ride down there, if its high tide aswell, you can just walk straight in but youve got very little chance of getting out unless your very fit and maybe even a survival expert, also the shock of the cold water - very cold plus the current. Id say - no problem getting in - no chance getting out. My mates have boats up at wilfolme, google earth it youll see the cabins and the boats moored. Ive swam in there in summer the last few years, im only amatuer but i can tell ye i cant last very long and cant get out without the pontoon. Nothing equal about getting in and out of that river.

If it is tidal there and changes there - and I'm told it is not - then PR would have returned at high tide which looks even worse for him IMO.

 

[jamjim]

14:08
'I only wanted to help her'
Relowicz is being questioned once more by prosecution barrister Richard Wright QC.

Mr Wright said: “Is this right? You say you only interacted with her in order to try and assist her? You did not intend to commit any sexual offence against her?”

Relowicz says: “Yes.”

He has said he never committed a sexual offence against Libby. He says he just tried to take her home and she “caused” him to end up on Oak Road.

Mr Wright says: “She instigated sex with you?”

Relowicz said: “It was both.”

He says the pair had consensual sexual intercourse and he left her alive.

Pawel quizzed by prosecutors as he returns to the witness box

 

[cocomisty]

Yes I think if he put her in the river it was on the third visit.

PR's right knee on his joggers is wet/dirty. Think this was about 30 minutes after the third visit at 3.05am. Maybe he went back to look for something he left behind or maybe to put Libby in the river.


CCTV of Pawel Relowicz's stroll in hours after alleged Libby murder

On Tuesday, Mr Wright told the court how later on in the early hours of February 1, Relowicz had been caught again on CCTV heading back out into the street "looking for the condom" he had used.

Not sure when he was looking for his condom so might be that that's caused the wet/dirty knee.

Don't think we will ever find out the true story unless he does an Arron Campbell and confesses all after the trial.

 

[Cherwell]

I think they meant that as he had committed so many crimes previously and left his DNA at the scene the police would have it. Not that, at that stage, it was associated with him.

For the earlier incidents. They wouldn't have had a name against the DNA but they would have linked all of the crimes.

Because of his previous offences going back three years. He'd left condoms and his calling card on doors quite often. So once they had his DNA from his arrest they'd have been able to match them to those crimes

But he wouldn't have known that.

What they didn't have, unfortunately, was a way of matching his DNA to a specific individual untill that day.

Exactly.

 

[jamjim]

14:14
No sexual motivation in approaching Libby, Relowicz insists
Relowicz admitted he was out looking to commit acts of voyeurism and a way of sating his sexual urges.

But when he came across Libby he insists he had no motivation initially other than to help her.

Mr Wright said: “Should we say you managed to suppress your sexual urges while you were with this girl?”

He said: “Correct.”

“And although you told us yesterday you were looking for easy sex this lost, hypothermic and drunk girl was not easy sex is that right?”

Relowicz said: “She wanted my help and I only wanted to help her.”

Pawel quizzed by prosecutors as he returns to the witness box

 

[Corneileus]

If it is tidal there and changes there - and I'm told it is not - then PR would have returned at high tide which looks even worse for him IMO.

Its totally tidal man and totally changes and it has one of the most powerful undercurrents in the uk...when the tide goes out you can fly down the river if ur engine fails and ur near the areas where libby is said to have gone into the water one way or another. I doubt relowicz has returned with the tides on his mind but if he did return and after a couple of hours and some - i would say that he was there to dispose of the body, I did think he may have gone back to see if he could get another attempt at rape, i feel on the other side he went to see if libby had regained consciousness from where he left her, she was dead and then into the river. If thats what happened how can we really know without cctv. Ive often wondered why theres no cctv on that park but you go round the council estate parks and they all have cameras or the areas with higher criminal activity.

I am certain that area is also used for outdoor sex, i have passed through there many times at night and seen people in the bushes, i just mind my own business of course but ive seen it.

once again the River Hull is Tidal, is very dangerous, even the police would not dive there to search, thats how dangerous it is.

 

[Tortoise]

Isn't Wright the prosecutor?

 

[Cherwell]

14:08
'I only wanted to help her'
Relowicz is being questioned once more by defence barrister Richard Wright QC.

Prosecution barrister !!!!!
But they've corrected it now.

 

[jamjim]

14:19
Relowicz denies Libby represented an easy target for sex
Relowicz denies targeting Libby.

Mr Wright said: “She was a target for easy sex, the easy sex you was looking for wasn’t she? You chose to take her to Oak Road didn’t you? Because you knew it well and knew it was a good place to rape her didn’t you? In the course of raping her you killed her didn’t you? You were responsible for her entering the water wasn’t you?”

Relowicz has answered “no” to the above questions.

Pawel quizzed by prosecutors as he returns to the witness box