UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[LucyRocket]

Is it possible that the translator is fine but PR is not particularly articulate?

Absolutely. I'm just wondering, because you have to have grounds for an appeal and people would try anything, could that be one. S/he didn't repeat what I said exactly

 

[mrjitty]

My problem with the suicide defence is that there is no evidence at trial or in general that someone who is raped immediately commits suicide - it's speculation

Overall I find the idea that Libby put herself in the river intentionally or by accident to be speculative at best - there is no evidence of it. But at the same time, we have a rapist who just attacked her, and delivered false testimony about how he left her that night ...

hmmm

 

[JosieJo]

If sex in cars was often or even occasionally seen in the lay-by...does this support PW "claim" that his first visit to oak rd was voyeurism?
Imo even if he killed her im not convinced he was planning to rape and kill that night in its purest form ..I think it may have been a crime waiting to happen at some point especially rape (not all rapes end in death) but I'm not convinced he was planning it that night specifically

 

[tigerowl]

Unfortunately, rape is a rife crime. Apparently, there are approx 85,000 rapes a year in the UK yet only around 2000 convictions. I suspect most rapists think they will get away with it and just carry on about their normal life. It is a sad but true fact.

I can only see evidence so far to suggest that PR is a rapist. I don't think that it is that surprising that he carried on behaving the way he always has done after raping someone. Enjoying his sexual high and prowling the streets for more.

I feel extremely sad for Libby and her friends and family, but as this trial goes on, I really do think he left her at the park and she ended up in the river herself. He is still responsible for her death in my eyes but I don't think he murdered her. This is all based on what has been reported. As I have said previously, I hope there is more evidence that we haven't seen that will change this.

 

[Newthoughts]

There is stumbling away and unknowingly no longer being pursued (so it doesn’t matter that it’s not fast) and falling accidentally into the river. It is possible without anything to show that he was in the park, that he is telling the truth on that point and LS ran off in that direction to stop him following her in the car. Her belief is that he may start pursuing her on foot, but reality was he didn’t, or he did but only a short distance before giving up and leaving the park. That is my third option for what may have happened.

Except we have the expert opinion that she would struggle to run away I'm assuming because she would struggle to run.

And PR has not himself suggested it even when her running away after getting annoyed with him would have made that version more believable.

And he did not mention her walking into the park even tho that would support that story

 

[Sooty]

If sex in cars was often or even occasionally seen in the lay-by...does this support PW "claim" that his first visit to oak rd was voyeurism?
Imo even if he killed her im not convinced he was planning to rape and kill that night in its purest form ..I think it may have been a crime waiting to happen at some point especially rape (not all rapes end in death) but I'm not convinced he was planning it that night

that’s interesting, yes. It could also be a part reason for his third visit - wonder how often he popped by?

 

[ChiCubs2016]

A lot has been said that he wouldn't have returned the third time if he thought there was a risk of Libby being there - therefore, he must have killed her because he felt safe.

I'm no psychologist, but I disagree with this. His previous form shows him often returning to the same houses, same streets and same people. I think he was so excited by what he had done and so sexually charged he went back to that area to re-live his excitement. Remind himself of what he had done. He is still very sexually charged at this point as it is not long after that we see him masturbating on Newland.

This is true. But he stated he went back to see if she was okay. And now that it appears he is comfortable talking about his fetish why wouldn’t he say that is why he went back. He admitted going out that night to find a girl to have sex. If he was so excited by his great luck to find a ready and willing candidate what would be wrong with also saying he went back to relive it. MOO MOO

 

[Newthoughts]

he wasn’t worried because, according to his testimony, they had had consensual intercourse. If that was the case, Why would he think she would report it?

this is his perspective, not mine.

Consensual sexual intercourse does often happen in these circumstances (drunk, considered incapable to give consent), for right or for wrong, I know many, many young people who have been keen to seek the adventure of drunken, anonymous sex experiences on a night out. It doesn’t make sense to me, but it does indeed happen. I also know that they have suffered some degree of PTSD afterwards, but it is often after a considerable time, in some cases years - particularly if they repeat the behaviour on a regular basis. It is a form of self harm IMO.

But her friends were concerned the minute they arrived home and found she wasn't there. Concerned enough to contact her mum. Concerned enough to send out a WhatsApp message (from earlier threads) to people they knew. Concerned enough to drive round looking for her. Concerned enough to call the police.

None of that is consistent with that being normal or regular for her. I shared a student house with someone that often didn't come home. It was usual so we didn't worry

 

[JosieJo]

The third visit. He'd left Libby alive according to him. Yet he wasn't worried she'd go for help, get police involved, that a description of him and his car would be going around, that police might be searching for him that very minute. He was out and about, back to the scene of the crime and with not a care in the world. He knew she was dead IMO.
JMO

I have conflicting thoughts on this ...in some ways I see that could happen...but also if this was a massive step up involving death would a person stay in the house for the night?

I think either he had to retrieve or hide something important or he thought he had had consensual sex (stupidly)

But him carrying on patrolling the area etc if he had hidden something on that visit doesn't fit with someone who had just killed
Even if these perverted activities he does are a compulsion he could have gone to a different area than oak rd

 

[Newthoughts]

My problem with the suicide defence is that there is no evidence at trial or in general that someone who is raped immediately commits suicide - it's speculation

Overall I find the idea that Libby put herself in the river intentionally or by accident to be speculative at best - there is no evidence of it. But at the same time, we have a rapist who just attacked her, and delivered false testimony about how he left her that night ...

hmmm

Indeed hmmm

 

[LucyRocket]

The third visit. He'd left Libby alive according to him. Yet he wasn't worried she'd go for help, get police involved, that a description of him and his car would be going around, that police might be searching for him that very minute. He was out and about, back to the scene of the crime and with not a care in the world. He knew she was dead IMO.
JMO

Why would any of those things happen, when according to him, they'd had consensual sex?

 

[Newthoughts]

A lot has been said that he wouldn't have returned the third time if he thought there was a risk of Libby being there - therefore, he must have killed her because he felt safe.

I'm no psychologist, but I disagree with this. His previous form shows him often returning to the same houses, same streets and same people. I think he was so excited by what he had done and so sexually charged he went back to that area to re-live his excitement. Remind himself of what he had done. He is still very sexually charged at this point as it is not long after that we see him masturbating on Newland.

I'm no psychologist either but I do think lack of empathy shown by enjoying the fear of victims is a psychopathic trait. Much has been said about poor old Libby's mental state but I'd love to hear what psychologists have to say about him.

Given the crimes he's in prison for - he will undoubtedly have been assessed. It's a shame we can't hear thosr

 

[Sooty]

But her friends were concerned the minute they arrived home and found she wasn't there. Concerned enough to contact her mum. Concerned enough to send out a WhatsApp message (from earlier threads) to people they knew. Concerned enough to drive round looking for her. Concerned enough to call the police.

None of that is consistent with that being normal or regular for her. I shared a student house with someone that often didn't come home. It was usual so we didn't worry

I didn’t say it was usual or regular for Libby, just that it could have been a possibility.

 

[astheworldfallsdown]

Why would any of those things happen, when according to him, they'd had consensual sex?

Spinning lies to the police when questioned wouldn't have affected his actions that night though... JMO

 

[Newthoughts]

If sex in cars was often or even occasionally seen in the lay-by...does this support PW "claim" that his first visit to oak rd was voyeurism?
Imo even if he killed her im not convinced he was planning to rape and kill that night in its purest form ..I think it may have been a crime waiting to happen at some point especially rape (not all rapes end in death) but I'm not convinced he was planning it that night specifically

What evidence do we have that sex in cars was common there? Close to a residential area?

Where does he say his trip to Oak Road playing field was for voyeurism? The streets certainly but no line students would be in the park

 

[JosieJo]

Can Corneileus or a local help ive marked the lay-by red the only path that is open at night blue and the boathouse slope to river yellow...is this correct?

Could someone show me where the second alternative slope up to the river is please on Corneileus fab photos?

 

[JosieJo]

What evidence do we have that sex in cars was common there? Close to a residential area?

Where does he say his trip to Oak Road playing field was for voyeurism? The streets certainly but no line students would be in the park

Corneileus explained he had seen dogging there before ...obviously this is not in court do jury won't know anyway

He said in his testimony he had gone out on his first visit to do what he normally does ..ill try and find it

 

[Newthoughts]

Unfortunately, rape is a rife crime. Apparently, there are approx 85,000 rapes a year in the UK yet only around 2000 convictions. I suspect most rapists think they will get away with it and just carry on about their normal life. It is a sad but true fact.

I can only see evidence so far to suggest that PR is a rapist. I don't think that it is that surprising that he carried on behaving the way he always has done after raping someone. Enjoying his sexual high and prowling the streets for more.

I feel extremely sad for Libby and her friends and family, but as this trial goes on, I really do think he left her at the park and she ended up in the river herself. He is still responsible for her death in my eyes but I don't think he murdered her. This is all based on what has been reported. As I have said previously, I hope there is more evidence that we haven't seen that will change this.

From which point in the park do you think she ended up in the river and how. Genuine questions because I'm struggling with the idea.

If you don't think it's close to the river what was her likely path bearing in mind the critical care doctors evidence on her ability to run away. Why not head for houses?

If you think he left her closer to the river why is her getting in more likely than him putting her in bearing in mind the critical care doctors evidence on how she wouldn't be able to fight. And again get reduced ability to run a distance

As I say I think it is easier for someone fuelled with adrenaline to place her in.

That's my issue. How does a drink and hypothermic girl far enough into that river to get to the Humber Estuary

 

[Newthoughts]

I didn’t say it was usual or regular for Libby, just that it could have been a possibility.

But it has to a reasonable possibility.

 

[Sooty]

But it has to a reasonable possibility.

which it is