UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[mrjitty]

Shows like that are heavily supervised by experts and conditions are never as shocking as they make them out to be

I mean the reality is, you can die of exposure reasonably quickly - like in hours, especially if wet without shelter, lost in the bush

But a functioning human will keep moving at first, even if drunk, and that is the problem with this nonsense. Even if she went in the river by accident, it is hardly difficult to get out.

So we have to be expected to believe her suicide idea was to hop into a tidal river from low banks?? I mean how does that even work?

 

[Corneileus]

<modsnip>

But in all seriousness, I don’t think anyone could be involved, I think it’s a two way street in which either he killed her or she dies of her own devices (suicide or accident)

Im sure during the search investigation and enquiries they’d have details of everyone who entered and exited that park within the entire evening/night.[/QU

How would they know anything about anyone who entered the park that night or really really importantly, who was already on the park. I do not see the time for both pawel and libby to make it to the river bank. this is my neighbourhood, i swear to you i am not a pawel sympathizer/thiser (my spellings got crap) the timescales do not add up. i say this with full confidence and so do my older grandad mates who do not use the internet and they live in the area libby was ...murdered? kidnapped twice? Every park in hull is dangerous, especially pearson park on a night, queenie park and beresford park/oak road fields (exact same park but two names). there is every chance there were one or more other dangerous evil men on that park the night pawel claims he left libby. i beleive it a real possibility.

 

[Corneileus]

<modsnip>

But in all seriousness, I don’t think anyone could be involved, I think it’s a two way street in which either he killed her or she dies of her own devices (suicide or accident)

Im sure during the search investigation and enquiries they’d have details of everyone who entered and exited that park within the entire evening/night.[/QU

How would they know anything about anyone who entered the park that night or really really importantly, who was already on the park. I do not see the time for both pawel and libby to make it to the river bank. this is my neighbourhood, i swear to you i am not a pawel sympathizer/thiser (my spellings got crap) the timescales do not add up. i say this with full confidence and so do my older grandad mates who do not use the internet and they live in the area libby was ...murdered? kidnapped twice? Every park in hull is dangerous, especially pearson park on a night, queenie park and beresford park/oak road fields (exact same park but two names). there is every chance there were one or more other dangerous evil men on that park the night pawel claims he left libby. i believe it a real possibility.

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

Admitting to the screams is a disaster. This is why he never should have testified.

I only see his disastrous testimony and lies consolidating the rape charge, not the murder.

Murder in this case is guesswork, unlike other cases without a definitive cause of death but where the victim could not possibly have done to themselves what the evidence shows - like burial or fire.

 

[Sooty]

I mean the reality is, you can die of exposure reasonably quickly - like in hours, especially if wet without shelter, lost in the bush

But a functioning human will keep moving at first, even if drunk, and that is the problem with this nonsense. Even if she went in the river by accident, it is hardly difficult to get out.

So we have to be expected to believe her suicide idea was to hop into a tidal river from low banks?? I mean how does that even work?

I disagree regarding your points on the river. It is difficult to get out if you fall in accidently - which is why so many people accidently drown in rivers. Where I grew up we had to have a lifeboat on the river, it was tidal and treacherous.

Likewise, people do regularly manage to drown themselves in most unlikely place if they are intent and desperate to do so.

It shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand like that when it’s not only possible, it is backed up with casualties.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I only see his disastrous testimony and lies consolidating the rape charge, not the murder.

Murder in this case is guesswork, unlike other cases without a definitive cause of death but where the victim could not possibly have done to themselves what the evidence shows - like burial or fire.

Or being found dead in water but not having drowned.

It's a real shame Libby wasn't found for such a long time; we could have been looking at a very different story. Equally, it's a blessing she was found at all or we wouldn't be following a trial right now.

 

[Corneileus]

So if he didn’t murder her, but left her there to potentially die, knowing how vulnerable she was, is that not murder?
He said he drove off immediately after sex and she was shouting for him to come back. But he left her there in that state
That in itself is disgusting.

absolutely is disgusting and has to pay, evidence says so..but he left her screaming next to houses in the layby. one thing i know for sure is that you could not shout (pawel)...scream(prosecution) without those houses hearing, its just not possible if he was in the layby.

I absolutely feel it is impossible for the houses on claremont avenue to have heard screams from the top left corner of the fishing pond, its too dense woodalnd and too far away. it does need serioulsy investigating again right away.

 

[CrimeAway]

When i was a schoolboy, we had a river which flowed through our school and i walked over the bridge winter mornings in a 3 degree frost with steam coming off the river

There was a crazy dog owned by the caretaker, which used to jump in there at 8am and splash around before getting out. Of course the river was warmer than the air temperature.

The idea you die in seconds is simply not true. But when you get out, that water that is on you will freeze eventually if you stay outdoors

But the idea you die just like that? It's not true

I read up a little on "cold shock response" and it appears that the effects can begin in as little as 1-5 minutes after immersion in water temperatures below 60*F ~15*C

National Center for Cold Water Safety-Cold Shock

Cold Water Shock - Causes - Symptoms - Body's reaction

Cold shock response - Wikipedia

 

[elysian2]

I'm struggling with why he would single out the green shed as the location of the rape unless it's actually true. Claiming that the 'consensual sex' took place somewhere in the park would make much more sense (and we have mostly, I think, been assuming that the real attack did take place in the park). Admitting to a park location would make his claim that he left Libby alive, and the implication that she must have either deliberately or accidentally made her own way to the river, more plausible - he could have claimed that she refused to leave with him, for instance, so he had to leave her. Singling out the green shed makes it harder for anyone to believe that Libby walked away from the lights and into the darkness of her own accord. So, why lie about the location in a way that weakens his own case? Or, by giving that location, is he perhaps banking on it making the timings to and from the river even tighter? Yet the defence haven't (so far) queried the timing element of it at all - presumably because if their case is that he was not in the park at that time, the timing interval of how long to the river bank etc is irrelevant?

I think there may be a grain of truth in the rape location if nothing else. He may have struggled to 'contain' himself for long enough to get Libby into the park. We know how badly incapacitated she was, but he didn't necessarily know the full extent of it; he may have though that he didn't stand a chance of getting her into the park without a struggle, and opted for right outside the car instead. If Libby ran from the car and he immediately caught her, this location would also make sense - for rape, but not necessarily for the murder charge. If this location IS true, then it gives rise to more questions than answers about what really happened. If it ISN'T true, then I don't get the point of the lie.

 

[sundaaaay]

So after she’s ran from his car and she’s confused, in shock and debilitated because of the onset of hypothermia, she’s screaming and trying to get away, in which direction she doesn’t know, just AWAY from him, she couldn’t have ended up much nearer the river? Then he’s then caught her, raped her, made her unconscious by putting his hand over her nose and mouth to stifle her screams, then got her in the river?

I agree, I think the explanation for at least some ground covered in the short space timeframe counts for a chase after Libby's fight or flight instinct to run in the opposite direction of him (into the park). However she was clearly unsteady on her legs but maybe adrenaline made it possible. She probably wasn't thinking about where she was, just that she wanted to get away from him, it was survival mode.

 

[catgreen]

I read up a little on "cold shock response" and it appears that the effects can begin in as little as 1-5 minutes after immersion in water temperatures below 60*F ~15*C

National Center for Cold Water Safety-Cold Shock

Cold Water Shock - Causes - Symptoms - Body's reaction

Cold shock response - Wikipedia

strange, my friend swims in the North Sea 3 times a week and some other friends wild swim, no wetsuits and they do it all year round

 

[Corneileus]

I read up a little on "cold shock response" and it appears that the effects can begin in as little as 1-5 minutes after immersion in water temperatures below 60*F ~15*C

National Center for Cold Water Safety-Cold Shock

Cold Water Shock - Causes - Symptoms - Body's reaction

Cold shock response - Wikipedia

it is all dependent on ur current health...i go swimming in that river, last 3 years, 4 yrs if i did this one. It is so cold you have to an athlete/cold water swimmer to stand it even in summer...

now - a couple of years ago a lad jumped in the marina in hull/here/home...he was dead from shock in under a minute whilst his friend stood and watched..google it.

 

[sundaaaay]

This case has made me so scared of Hull

 

[porkypies]

This is the power of circumstantial evidence. It's why we need to look at all the evidence at once, instead of nitpicking individual evidence points

It is simply too coincidental.

Including a potential convenient high tide at 2.30am?

 

[Dotta]

This case has made me so scared of Hull

Ha ha I love British humour

 

[Kaykedi]

I'm getting a lot of stick for my tv reference lol I know its a ridiculous show but my point was in reference to somebody saying if you go into very cold water you will drown due to the shock of the cold water. I was trying to highlight, not always, as shown by pampered celebrities. The river was 10c if I recall correctly. Yes that's cold but its not freezing temperature.

I can't see the water temperature being 10c, surely it would have been colder at that time of year, does anyone know?

 

[Corneileus]

This case has made me so scared of Hull

murder last week not less than a mile up the river from the supposed spot she was placed intothe river. sorry ahem less than a mile.

 

[Vera_dci]

I knew I'd seen 10c somewhere. It appears it's no more than 10c.


Prof Deakin also told the court the river temperature would have been no higher than 10C If Libby had fallen in the river she could remain conscious for 30 minutes and would probably have died after an hour or so

Vulnerable Libby would have 'struggled to defend herself' - trial

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Have any of you locals worked how the timescales might change if the bench in the middle of the park was part of the scene? There has to be a good reason for that late night forensic visit.

 

[Corneileus]

I knew I'd seen 10c somewhere. It appears it's no more than 10c.


Prof Deakin also told the court the river temperature would have been no higher than 10C If Libby had fallen in the river she could remain conscious for 30 minutes and would probably have died after an hour or so

Vulnerable Libby would have 'struggled to defend herself' - trial

has he been swimming in that river?