UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[wilkela]

His easiest opportunity to rape is in his car.

If you know you've raped somebody without a condom who is now walking round with your DNA or has fallen down somewhere and is likely to be found - the very least you do when arrested is tell your solicitor who would advise you to admit to that bit.

PR knew that park. He'd flown a drone over it. He'd visited earlier that evening.

Libby could barely walk without falling over. She's just been raped and she chooses to leave a brightly lit street and go to a dark park. Gets across it?

Did you ever had sex in the car?
I think he couldn't rape her in the car ,it is too small space especially when we know they both wasn't small people.

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm getting a lot of stick for my tv reference lol I know its a ridiculous show but my point was in reference to somebody saying if you go into very cold water you will drown due to the shock of the cold water. I was trying to highlight, not always, as shown by pampered celebrities. The river was 10c if I recall correctly. Yes that's cold but its not freezing temperature.

It's not a remotely ridiculous reference. They are jumping into freezing water. They are doing so because it is safe. You are right

Every new years day people jump into the freezing cold Thames. They don't die

But most importantly of all - we have had an expert witness tell us what could have happened. He's the one that matters

 

[Winterbells]

I must admit it's only very recently that any mention of it being a dogging site has arisen. Despite it being an area of interest for two years so I'm very confused.

Do you we have any clear evidence it was? And where were they that night?

Plus, I don't think doggers are interested in rape or murder. They're interested in dogging.

 

[Dotta]

I must admit it's only very recently that any mention of it being a dogging site has arisen. Despite it being an area of interest for two years so I'm very confused.

Do you we have any clear evidence it was? And where were they that night?

His saying he went to this park "to watch people" speaks volumes.

 

[Newthoughts]

For those asking why some feel there is a problem with timing ...this is why I do

The prosecution who wants to prove it possible say 7.5 min so thats going to be best case scenario

Again the prosecution say to walk from car to river 4 minutes ..there would be no "walking"
Libby was zigzagging and falling and likely struggling..or he would be carrying her while she was struggling...that imo makes it 4 mins at best..even if she run with fright ..he would have caught up with her in seconds so I do not think at any point running would give any gain in time

To get someone pinned down and for him to (let's say unzip etc) while struggling..its likely she did struggle as scratches and bruises..then very quickly do the deed ..even if seconds you would still need a certain amount of time to asphyxiate...then check they were dead ...2 mins at very best for that group of actions

Let's go best case again and say she was attacked as near to the river without being caught on yeast factory cctv ..pick her up walk a very short distance and place her in the river...30 seconds at best

Prosecution (again best case scenario) say running 1.5 to 2 minutes...the screaming witness saw him at 3 points "walking quickly" ...not running (the defence corrected the prosecution to say he was not running) so likely 2.5 minutes at very best

Imo all the above are at very best ...its all about the distance not the time to rape and kill

Just by distance and maths there is a problem

We are up to 9 minutes!

Add snow and ice ...add inclines ....the photos Corneileus did showed the distance and the slopes and terrain and compounded the problem more to me..not even added time on for that

Plus the prosecution seem to feel there will be doubts..specifically mentioned in opening..if the prosecution feel there will be doubts..why would anyone not have at least a slight concern

Based on true distance and the claims above by the prosecution on travel times across the park I would say how can anyone not have even a slight concern

He arrived at the park and 11 mins later he was back at home putting his feet up after driving home!

Good points.

I don't think you could factor in Libby's speed because without people around it would be easy to just carry. I've seen it done with people who aren't being attacked. The expert said she would not be able to fight much. So 4 minutes to the river before or after the rape. Possibly the screams heard.

I don't think the rape would have taken two minutes. He didn't even take her pants off. I'd say one minute if that.

Then a fast walk or run back which the prosecutor said could be done on 1.5.

 

[Newthoughts]

Did you ever had sex in the car?
I think he couldn't rape her in the car ,it is too small space especially when we know they both wasn't small people.

I think quite a lot of people would have quite innocently had sex in a car.

Plus isn't that a basic requirement for dogging?

 

[Joolz1975]

My thoughts about timing are that it’s not only doubtful in the time frame, but also why? Why the rush? If you had murdered someone, or thought you had, as quickly as that, within a minute according to some - wouldn’t you think you would make sure that they were well and truly dead - watch for a while, make sure there’s no chance of coming around, or get out the water? He didn’t have a bus to catch - he was back out and about, not in a rush any other time.
I suggest that you would be more inclined to ensure the completion at the time of the action rather than return a couple of hours later.

Panic

 

[Sooty]

Good points.

I don't think you could factor in Libby's speed because without people around it would be easy to just carry. I've seen it done with people who aren't being attacked. The expert said she would not be able to fight much. So 4 minutes to the river before or after the rape. Possibly the screams heard.

I don't think the rape would have taken two minutes. He didn't even take her pants off. I'd say one minute if that.

Then a fast walk or run back which the prosecutor said could be done on 1.5.

Good morning @Newthoughts!

how do you reckon he got her out of the car?

 

[Newthoughts]

His saying he went to this park "to watch people" speaks volumes.

To be honest nothing he says speaks volumes because he's a proven liar.

I'd have been happier with the dogging reference if it had cropped up when locals were touring the park two years ago looking for places she could possibly be. This is the first time it's been mentioned in nearly 2 years

I'm sure doggers would have come forward or the police would have referenced it in any call for witnesses early on

 

[Joolz1975]

Good points.

I don't think you could factor in Libby's speed because without people around it would be easy to just carry. I've seen it done with people who aren't being attacked. The expert said she would not be able to fight much. So 4 minutes to the river before or after the rape. Possibly the screams heard.

I don't think the rape would have taken two minutes. He didn't even take her pants off. I'd say one minute if that.

Then a fast walk or run back which the prosecutor said could be done on 1.5.

I am a bit sceptical on the timings myself. But I am going to trust that the experts have done the research and know it can be done in that time. They would not have charged him otherwise.

 

[JusticeDT]

I think the timings will be addressed next week. At the moment, personally, I can't get past the sheer extent of the lying and not just once but 5 or 6 versions. I can't believe anything he is saying its like the boy who called wolf. Unless the defence pulls something out of the bag, I think he is guilty of rape and murder. Having said we have more to hear from the defence and possibly this coukd change everything.

 

[Corneileus]

It is currently (midnight) 4 degrees celsius in Hull.

and it has been much warmer here these last 3-4 days, was really warm yesterday...not like the cold night 2 years ago.

 

[wilkela]

I think quite a lot of people would have quite innocently had sex in a car.

Plus isn't that a basic requirement for dogging?

My point was that rape in car wouldn't be easy ,it is difficult even 2 people agree to have sex in the car but when you have to fight with someone it seems impossible (in that small car)

 

[Corneileus]

I am a bit sceptical on the timings myself. But I am going to trust that the experts have done the research and know it can be done in that time. They would not have charged him otherwise.

wait see what the defense to to it will be. it could be done - also this means then, he must of killer her or she was nearly that way but enough for him to carry her, id say thats the only way the timescales can work, that he carried her. I think once he got her close to the river she come round a bit and started screaming...hence the screams.

 

[JosieJo]

Good points.

I don't think you could factor in Libby's speed because without people around it would be easy to just carry. I've seen it done with people who aren't being attacked. The expert said she would not be able to fight much. So 4 minutes to the river before or after the rape. Possibly the screams heard.

I don't think the rape would have taken two minutes. He didn't even take her pants off. I'd say one minute if that.

Then a fast walk or run back which the prosecutor said could be done on 1.5.

I'm really not sure you could pin someone down get in a suitable position while struggling do the deed and kill and get back up in a minute I really don't its a group of actions together

Plus putting her in the river not accounted for there even if it only took 30 seconds which is best case

The prosecution said 1.5 to 2 running..if the man seen in the park was him he wasn't running he was walking quickly so couldn't be any less than 2min likely at touch more as 4 min is normally walking imo

 

[Newthoughts]

Good morning @Newthoughts!

how do you reckon he got her out of the car?

Grab and drag or she got out herself. He's not going to be gentle

 

[Corneileus]

Grab and drag or she got out herself. He's not going to be gentle

you reckon she would have screamed at that point?

 

[Skigh]

I am a bit sceptical on the timings myself. But I am going to trust that the experts have done the research and know it can be done in that time. They would not have charged him otherwise.

My thoughts too. If the timings were impossible the CPS would not allow the murder case to be brought to court.

 

[Sooty]

Grab and drag or she got out herself. He's not going to be gentle

I think, as @Cornelius said, there would be screaming at that place, by the houses, by the car, if he forcibly got her out the car.
If she got out herself and he then proceeded to grab her and threw her over his shoulder and started running - again, screams would have been heard by the car.
If she got out herself and willingly entered the park, we can all see from her movements on cctv on the streets that that would have taken some time, and begs the question, why she would enter the park with a stranger.

I don’t know the answers here, which is why I am querying. It’s quite a work out for my poor tired brain

 

[Corneileus]

It's not a remotely ridiculous reference. They are jumping into freezing water. They are doing so because it is safe. You are right

Every new years day people jump into the freezing cold Thames. They don't die

But most importantly of all - we have had an expert witness tell us what could have happened. He's the one that matters

the expert has missed that possibility then that she could of died in seconds also. She already had hypothermia too. Plus the fear which makes the shock ten times worse and Libby was scared of water.

Drunk so core body temp is even lower and more susceptible to the cold.

I feel the expert testimony isnt always expert. Been a fit person jumping into a river is not the same as a drunk one been thrown in or falling in though i now totally doubt she has made her own way to the bank of the river.