UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

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My thoughts too. If the timings were impossible the CPS would not allow the murder case to be brought to court.

If the prosecutiion end up trying to persuade the jury the timings are on and the defense try to persuade them that they are not right...that could be interesting to see what comes from those possibilities
 
But the story that he is telling us, after swearing an oath on the bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but, the truth, is that they had consensual sex so ... if we are being asked to believe that, then why would he be concerned about being 'traced'? He merely 'cheated on his wife' and Libby stumbled off alive... not an arrest able offence.
because hes lying....it was just a consideration of the third strange visit to the park. It is possible he was concerned about been recorded somewhere, hes mentioned cctv in his interviews...why would that be on his mind? is the devil in the details, usually is.

again just consdiderations, thanks for replying to my post :)
 
How would they know anything about anyone who entered the park that night or really really importantly, who was already on the park. I do not see the time for both pawel and libby to make it to the river bank. this is my neighbourhood, i swear to you i am not a pawel sympathizer/thiser (my spellings got crap) the timescales do not add up. i say this with full confidence and so do my older grandad mates who do not use the internet and they live in the area libby was ...murdered? kidnapped twice? Every park in hull is dangerous, especially pearson park on a night, queenie park and beresford park/oak road fields (exact same park but two names). there is every chance there were one or more other dangerous evil men on that park the night pawel claims he left libby. i believe it a real possibility.


Can you please provide substantiated proof that ORPF/Beresford park is a 'notorious dogging' site please - you have mentioned this several times and provide no proof.

It's okay of course for that to be your opinion but, you keep insisting on it.

No other local mentioned this before you (have any since?) and it doesn't features in 'Hulls definitive dogging dites' list.

Thanks in advance
 
when the prosecution want to get you - theyl go for anything to add weight.

Pawels defense cant afford an expert to challenge this but it wouldnt really be needed by his defense as he saying he didint kill her.

But here
Cold water shock can happen fast. It's most easily explained as that involuntary gasp you take when jumping into any body of water below 70 degrees.

thats somebody else with a medical degree - will this pass squire?

Think you could’ve used a different title at the end
It’s in bad taste even if unintentional.
 
i was wondering...how much money and time would it take the authorities to try a scream test?? 2 hours....er just wages as usual? i suggest these tests take place now.

To be of any use, it would need to exactly replicate the situation on that night and I don't think even Hull police can pay to make it snow. A covering of snow, frozen ground, air temperature all affect how sound behaves.
 
when the prosecution want to get you - theyl go for anything to add weight.

Pawels defense cant afford an expert to challenge this but it wouldnt really be needed by his defense as he saying he didint kill her.

But here
Cold water shock can happen fast. It's most easily explained as that involuntary gasp you take when jumping into any body of water below 70 degrees.

thats somebody else with a medical degree - will this pass squire?
70 degrees!! Wouldn't water of 70 degrees scald someone? That's incredibly hot. Most domestic hot taps would be set well below that. Our work ones are set at 50 and that's too hot

Can you talk me through the physiological steps of cold water shock. I'm not expecting in depth biochemistry just a laypersons indication of how it happens, how common it is (we do have celebs jumping into rivers so I'm guessing it's rare if TV insurance allows it) and why you think the expert missed it
 
I'm struggling with why he would

single out the green shed as the location of the rape unless it's actually true.

(and we have mostly, I think, been assuming that the real attack did take place in the park). Admitting to a park location would make his claim that he left Libby alive, and the implication that she must have either deliberately or accidentally made her own way to the river, more plausible - he could have claimed that she refused to leave with him, for instance, so he had to leave her. Singling out the green shed makes it harder for anyone to believe that Libby walked away from the lights and into the darkness of her own accord. So, why lie about the location in a way that weakens his own case? Or, by giving that location, is he perhaps banking on it making the timings to and from the river even tighter? Yet the defence haven't (so far) queried the timing element of it at all - presumably because if their case is that he was not in the park at that time, the timing interval of how long to the river bank etc is irrelevant?

I think there may be a grain of truth in the rape location if nothing else. He may have struggled to 'contain' himself for long enough to get Libby into the park. We know how badly incapacitated she was, but he didn't necessarily know the full extent of it; he may have though that he didn't stand a chance of getting her into the park without a struggle, and opted for right outside the car instead. If Libby ran from the car and he immediately caught her, this location would also make sense - for rape, but not necessarily for the murder charge. If this location IS true, then it gives rise to more questions than answers about what really happened. If it ISN'T true, then I don't get the point of the lie.

BBM

I didn't read your entire post im afraid but, I wanted to answer the line I've bolded -

why he would single out the green shed as the location of the rape unless it's actually true.

If the 'sex' was consensual - why would they need to go all the way into the park for it? If it was consensual they it could've taken place in the car, next to the car, nearby to the car ... if you were suddenly overcome by consensual lust - you wouldn't go hundreds of yards into a darkened park first ... IMO

This latest spewing of utter lies just fits with his version.

I know (before anyone jumps) that polygraph aren't 100% or admissible in courts etc etc BUT, I really wish that defendants could all just be given one ... for fun.
 
I remain hopeful that the jury are getting to view ORPF either in person or because of lockdown via virtual reality.

My reasoning: courtserve has the trial as sitting today & HDM reporter’s wording re today
 

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just to add...10 degrees...no more than ten degrees the expert said the temp of the river, and libby could of survived upto an hour. absolutely no chance that is not accurate. no way. i know it sounds over critical but...its not true.
I dont doubt your right corneileus but the jury will go with the expert opinion and if its stated the water temperature was around 10 degrees that night and libby could have survived for upto an hour, thats what the jury will believe. Whats the point of asking an experts opinion? otherwise its pure speculation.
 
BBM

I didn't read your entire post im afraid but, I wanted to answer the line I've bolded -

why he would single out the green shed as the location of the rape unless it's actually true.

If the 'sex' was consensual - why would they need to go all the way into the park for it? If it was consensual they it could've taken place in the car, next to the car, nearby to the car ... if you were suddenly overcome by consensual lust - you wouldn't go hundreds of yards into a darkened park first ... IMO

This latest spewing of utter lies just fits with his version.

I know (before anyone jumps) that polygraph aren't 100% or admissible in courts etc etc BUT, I really wish that defendants could all just be given one ... for fun.
]Half the Barristers would loose their jobs...
 
I can’t seem to find the post now but I read that the jury had queried where PR was 1.07-1.11am. (I believe this was when is he is said to be at home, bathing and watching *advertiser censored*)
It got me thinking about the croda cctv appeal early in the investigation, asking for information about 4 people who were captured on film on the path that leads from the playing fields between 1.13 and 2.34am. The first man in these clips was seen running then slowing to a walk at 1.13am.

Could it be this man hasn’t yet been identified and it is him who the jury’s query is about? Could it be that they think PR made his way back to the park on foot? Or is there a possibility perhaps that PR wasn’t the only one there that night and that someone else could indeed harmed Libby after he left? Could this tie in with the defence witnesses statements about heating screams after 12.30am?

The key CCTV which could hold clues to Libby's homicide investigation
 
BBM

I didn't read your entire post im afraid but, I wanted to answer the line I've bolded -

why he would single out the green shed as the location of the rape unless it's actually true.

If the 'sex' was consensual - why would they need to go all the way into the park for it? If it was consensual they it could've taken place in the car, next to the car, nearby to the car ... if you were suddenly overcome by consensual lust - you wouldn't go hundreds of yards into a darkened park first ... IMO

This latest spewing of utter lies just fits with his version.

I know (before anyone jumps) that polygraph aren't 100% or admissible in courts etc etc BUT, I really wish that defendants could all just be given one ... for fun.

Right

In those temps, I really don't believe in the outdoor sex story - why not hit the backseat where it is warm?

I think what we don't know is whether she ultimately went into the park to try to get away - I can't really see why she would have gone in there with him otherwise
 
I can’t seem to find the post now but I read that the jury had queried where PR was 1.07-1.11am. (I believe this was when is he is said to be at home, bathing and watching *advertiser censored*)
It got me thinking about the croda cctv appeal early in the investigation, asking for information about 4 people who were captured on film on the path that leads from the playing fields between 1.13 and 2.34am. The first man in these clips was seen running then slowing to a walk at 1.13am.

Could it be this man hasn’t yet been identified and it is him who the jury’s query is about? Could it be that they think PR made his way back to the park on foot? Or is there a possibility perhaps that PR wasn’t the only one there that night and that someone else could indeed harmed Libby after he left? Could this tie in with the defence witnesses statements about heating screams after 12.30am?

The key CCTV which could hold clues to Libby's homicide investigation
id say your considerations are similar to mine and i would of asked about these men but i fetl if i did i would get told to catch up

Nothing ever came of those guys on oak rd passed croda...it feels well dodgy
 
It's not just that though. It would be getting Libby out of the car, coaxing her through the gate, getting her into the park. You've probably got a minute there at least as she's unsteady on her feet. A minute to then rape and kill her (which has to be longer than that if you go by the screaming evidence). Then to carry a dead body across the field, up the hump, through the trees, onto the bank, into the river, then run back to the car (remembering to slow to a fast walk as he came into view of windows) and into the car. All the time it's dark and slippery.


If Libby got out as soon as is possible and ran as best she could in the only direction she could - into the park - he can take the time to get out, potentially lock his car (we heard they were both seen going in- we haven't been told they went in at the exact same time) and then run after her - she's already into the park by this point (heading towards the boatshed?)- finding her isn't a particular problem as it was white over with snow and illuminated by whichever moon shape and Libby was wearing all black so that would stand out - he catches up to her - throws her to the floor- the act takes less than a minute - rape and suffocation to stop her screaming - realises she's dead or near it and puts her in the river which is fairly nearby and then sprints out of the park- slowing a little past the house so as not to arouse too much suspicion.

The 3rd visit is either to check her body isn't still there ... although, have we been told he drove to ORPF a third time or that he went INTO the park (I forget) ... if it was just driving there and he didn't go IN, I would suggest maybe to relive it in proximity or to see if there was any police activity there. If there's not ... off to look for his next victim.
 
I dont doubt your right corneileus but the jury will go with the expert opinion and if its stated the water temperature was around 10 degrees that night and libby could have survived for upto an hour, thats what the jury will believe. Whats the point of asking an experts opinion? otherwise its pure speculation.
i already said it doesnt matter for pawels defense and i stated last night that it had just puzzled me. I disagree with that expert advice having been in the river often and boating in it up at wilfholme and helpholme wehre my friends have boats and log cabins along the river bank.

However why have the cps made an issue then of how long she would of survived? why did they need to bring that up? cant blame me for been interested in something they have brought up...everything is open to scrutiny in this trial by the seems of it.

I agree the jury will go with the expert, i never thought they would not.
 
How would they know anything about anyone who entered the park that night or really really importantly, who was already on the park. I do not see the time for both pawel and libby to make it to the river bank. this is my neighbourhood, i swear to you i am not a pawel sympathizer/thiser (my spellings got crap) the timescales do not add up. i say this with full confidence and so do my older grandad mates who do not use the internet and they live in the area libby was ...murdered? kidnapped twice? Every park in hull is dangerous, especially pearson park on a night, queenie park and beresford park/oak road fields (exact same park but two names). there is every chance there were one or more other dangerous evil men on that park the night pawel claims he left libby. i believe it a real possibility.
I tend to agree with your thinking corneileous i dont this was just PR implicated. The blood curdling screams heard at heathcoate st at 12.30 plus the two independent witness accounts in claremont stating the same time muddys the waters for me.
 
I thought the park was inaccessible to vehicles on a night due to locked gates?
i posted plenty of pics up for yas, covering the layby, of all the gates except the main gates which are locked on night and i showed the gate which is never locked and hasnt been locked for years.

The layby has only recently been made inaccessible by the new Bollards. I dont think i can explain it any better, like i said - take it or leave it. I dont BS, upto you if you feel i do, wont change my destiny :)
 
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