UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[bos]

I do think he was more forensically aware than I initially gave him credit for: not taking his phone; going to try and retrieve the used condom from near Chicken George etc but the awareness seems to be before and after his offences. I think at the height of sexual arousal that awareness deserts him so I’m inclined to think that he came back to ORPF to dispose of Libby in much the same way he returned to Newland/Alexandra after

 

[Cherwell]

My thoughts about timing are that it’s not only doubtful in the time frame, but also why? Why the rush? If you had murdered someone, or thought you had, as quickly as that, within a minute according to some - wouldn’t you think you would make sure that they were well and truly dead - watch for a while, make sure there’s no chance of coming around, or get out the water? He didn’t have a bus to catch - he was back out and about, not in a rush any other time.
I suggest that you would be more inclined to ensure the completion at the time of the action rather than return a couple of hours later.

Because she had been screaming and he was worried that someone had reported it and the police would arrive to investigate?

 

[mrazda71]

sorry just to add - he liked watching others have sex yes? through windows? is this correct. I had not considered what you are saying but in considering it, if more poeople are aware of this what i will call now (so my wording doesnt get changed so suit) a very dodgy spot. If pawel knew it was a dodgy spot, maybe on the other hand its a safer place for him to carry out the offense...?

Whatever speculation anyone can make on murder - I doubt very much that even people in the dogging community would bear witness to a rape of a drunk girl and therefore - if it was so well known locally then SURELY the very local pervert, Pawel would know about it?
So, why then would he choose there from quite literally ANYWHERE else to take a girl to commit rape? Knowing there could potentially be a ready and waiting audience of doggers?

 

[Cherwell]

I have asked the court reporter this and he said 'he just didn't think to use one' ...

@mrazda71 Did we miss this, or are you saying that the HDM omitted to report it?

 

[mrazda71]

Well this thread is just getting silly now.

I think, as the poster above stated, she has jumped out the car ran away from him in the direction of the river and he’s caught up with her. Raped her, she’s jumped up again and started running and she’s fell in the water at which point she’s screaming (heard by witnesses) I think she was alive when she entered the water it’s the only rational explanation for the timings IMO.

Libby isn’t from Hull and for all we know had never visited that park in her life. That, scared and being intoxicated would have severely tampered with her bearings.

<modsnip>

IF Libby was alive, conscious and ran/walked/stumbled into the river - do you not think that there would be more evident signs of drowning? As the pathologist said he will not say that drowning was 'likely' ...

 

[Cherwell]

Whatever speculation anyone can make on murder - I doubt very much that even people in the dogging community would bear witness to a rape of a drunk girl and therefore - if it was so well known locally then SURELY the very local pervert, Pawel would know about it?
So, why then would he choose there from quite literally ANYWHERE else to take a girl to commit rape? Knowing there could potentially be a ready and waiting audience of doggers?

I don't doubt that the park at night is a venue for sexual activity, probably not what I understand as dogging which involves sex in cars, but there's no point in getting hung up on semantics.

The fact is it was a very cold winter night with snow on the ground, so highly unlikely that anyone would choose it for their assignation at that time.

 

[Alyce]

I remain hopeful that the jury are getting to view ORPF either in person or because of lockdown via virtual reality.

My reasoning: courtserve has the trial as sitting today & HDM reporter’s wording re today

I would like to think you are correct. However, Court Serve do sometimes show a link for a trial which is then over ridden by later arrangements.

If they were going to ORPF, it would have been stated yesterday by the Judge. Have seen several of these reconstruction/on site days and they are never a secret.

All MOO of course ,so quite possibly this is a first and it is being kept secret until tomorrow ?

 

[Skigh]

I would like to think you are correct. However, Court Serve do sometimes show a link for a trial which is then over ridden by later arrangements.

If they were going to ORPF, it would have been stated yesterday by the Judge. Have seen several of these reconstruction/on site days and they are never a secret.

All MOO of course ,so quite possibly this is a first and it is being kept secret until tomorrow ?

I agree site visits are always stated. Perhaps with so much local interest in the case and Covid it has indeed been kept secret as they did not want crowds of people around. Though if they did visit I am sure a local would report back to us !!

 

[mrazda71]

@mrazda71 Did we miss this, or are you saying that the HDM omitted to report it?

I commented to the journalist that we hoped the prosecution would ask why he didn't use a condom with Libby - the journalist replied 'yes, did you not see? He just said he didn't think about it' ... I think that we only hear only a bit of what's said in court and what articles print can be parred down to fit column inches (usually to fit as much advertising in as possible online I feel)

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm really not sure you could pin someone down get in a suitable position while struggling do the deed and kill and get back up in a minute I really don't its a group of actions together

Plus putting her in the river not accounted for there even if it only took 30 seconds which is best case

The prosecution said 1.5 to 2 running..if the man seen in the park was him he wasn't running he was walking quickly so couldn't be any less than 2min likely at touch more as 4 min is normally walking imo

CPS have allowed the charge so I guess they think it not just possible but likely. They will have barristers that have prosecuted rapes

 

[tigerowl]

I am local and I don't know anything about this being a dogging site - but by the same token I have no idea where any other dogging sites in Hull are. I would never go to that area after dark (far too scary) and have no interest in dogging - so it could be that it is a dogging are but local people on here just don't know and that is why it has never been mentioned before.

I also didn't know about it being a drug dealing place for exactly the same reasons above. Seems perfectly plausible that it is though and I can see through everything else he says about the area that Corneileus clearly knows the vicinity well.

 

[Cherwell]

I commented to the journalist that we hoped the prosecution would ask why he didn't use a condom with Libby - the journalist replied 'yes, did you not see? He just said he didn't think about it' ... I think that we only hear only a bit of what's said in court and what articles print can be parred down to fit column inches (usually to fit as much advertising in as possible online I feel)

Where was this, on Twitter? Why did she say "did you not see?" - was it in the paper and perhaps edited out?
I wonder how much has been missed out.

 

[Cherwell]

I am local and I don't know anything about this being a dogging site - but by the same token I have no idea where any other dogging sites in Hull are. I would never go to that area after dark (far too scary) and have no interest in dogging - so it could be that it is a dogging are but local people on here just don't know and that is why it has never been mentioned before.

I also didn't know about it being a drug dealing place for exactly the same reasons above. Seems perfectly plausible that it is though and I can see through everything else he says about the area that Corneileus clearly knows the vicinity well.

I think the line may have been blurred between "dogging" which as I understand it usually takes place in cars with spectators watching through the windows - and general outdoor sexual activity by people who may or may not welcome spectators. No doubt ORPF may be a venue for the latter. But not on cold winter nights.

 

[bos]

I would like to think you are correct. However, Court Serve do sometimes show a link for a trial which is then over ridden by later arrangements.

If they were going to ORPF, it would have been stated yesterday by the Judge. Have seen several of these reconstruction/on site days and they are never a secret.

All MOO of course ,so quite possibly this is a first and it is being kept secret until tomorrow ?

I wouldn’t bet my house either way tbh.

I do think the HDM reporting is selective, whether that’s because of space/time constraints; erring on the side of caution to minimise accusations of prejudicing the trial or if there was a direct reporting restriction to minimise public presence, who knows?

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

A thiught regarding the Yeast factory cctv. I have attached a couple of images of another cctv camera at the yeast factory. One is of the location of the camera and the other is a satelinte image showing the location of the camera in relation to the river etc. I wonder if this camera also picked anything up? Surely these cameras would have picked up areas close to the riverbank as they are to protect the property they are on not looking for stuff going on in the distance

Would PR have been told about what is seen on the cctv or is this to come as evidence showing them both at the riverside and hopefully capturing what really happened? One of these must have seen either LS nad PR near to the river or LS on her own near the riverbank.

Edit to upload photos

 

[Officer Dibble]

A few weeks ago I shared the possibility that IMO I wondered if PR had ADHD and hypersexuality. Now we know more about his character from recent days in court, I thought this was a good read regarding impulsivity and hypersexuality and a few other things. JMO MOO.

Effects of ADHD on Sexuality

 

[Officer Dibble]

Further to my above post I also would like to share this about compulsive lying from childhood. JMO MOO

ADHD and Lying: Why Some Kids With ADHD Frequently Lie | Understood - For learning and thinking differences

 

[Officer Dibble]

and here is an article on Pathological Lying which is one step on from Compulsive Lying (i think). JMO MOO Pathological Liar: How to Cope with Someone’s Compulsive Lies

 

[Catsarse]

Just playing devils advocate-what if the screams weren’t Libby? That would give a better timescale of him killing her fairly early into those 7.5 mins, and then having the time to move her body.

Perhaps he’s said she was screaming as he drove off from her at Oak Red as he knew he couldn’t get away with saying he heard nothing, so to try and tally up with mr Alford saying the screams lasted for a few mins and that the Claremont witnesses are saying they heard them later than mr Alford? All just me musing.....

I do believe the rape/smothering could happen quickly, he may have already had an erection upon parking up and lasted merely seconds.

Also if he did have to run/move quickly, please don’t discount absolute pure adrenaline. I’ve needed this once during being mugged/attacked by a stranger and I swear to god I’ve never moved so quickly-it felt like I had wings. At the time I was utterly amazed, and even thinking now I simply cannot believe how quickly my body got me out of that situation and the people/buildings I dodged. It was superhuman, and I’m no runner
Him pumped up on adrenaline would I’m sure mean he was capable of great speed/lifting

 

[Officer Dibble]

and last share of the day: ADHD and Empathy (or lack of it)
ADHD and Empathy: Identifying and Resolving the Disconnect