UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #22

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Offaly said:
What side are the bare legs as you look at the image. Are they on the left? Is everyone seeing the same thing (4 of you now have seen it).
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As you look at the image the person who is being carried head is hanging down to the left of the image and the legs hanging dangling to the right. It looks to me like an man carrying an unconscious person in his arms ready to throw in the water! Maybe I have a good imagination but that is what I see.
 
On re examining things I realise I made some factual errors in my post a couple of pages back. Apologies for that. I said...

"I can see the camera is by the entrance to the Croda site/industrial complex where it meets the footpath section of Oak Road. The people we saw on it look to have been exiting that site and turning to their right onto that footpath (which shortly becomes the carriageway of Oak Road where PW parked). I would suggest they were simply workers employed on the site going home. Indeed the complex is save for possibly one foot entrance much further into the site fully fenced off from the park."

That is incorrect. The people we saw were not exiting the Croda site and going on to that footpath. They were coming from that footpath, in other words moving away from the part of Oak Road where PW parked, and coming towards the Croda site. So unfortunately that means any of these people could have come out of the park.

I also incorrectly suggested the man Sam Alford saw, if it wasn't PW, must surely have turned right when he left the park. He could equally well of course have turned left. It is simply had he done so he would then have headed off down the footpath and unless he went into an adjoining house he would be picked up on the Croda CCTV camera.
 
I keep looking at the Croda CCTV. The last two people walk by at 2:34am. Coming from the direction of the park. My measurement equals a little over a quarter mile or 450 meters. If we say they were walking at 20 minutes a mile (about avg here in the US) that would have them at the point where PR was when he left at 2:29am. If they were walking faster then 2:30? So close. I can see why LE was looking for those people. To see if they saw PR and/or his car. I think my timing is correct but I did have to really think about where Croda was and which direction everyone was walking! MOO
 
bos said:
I know more tends to be reported after any guilty verdict than is reported through the trial. I’m curious as to the <5% ; have there been any studies which demonstrate the figure is that small or is it purely your opinion? Not attempting to be confrontational, just curious about the figure. Thanks.
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Sorry it was my opinion, I should have said that. Certainly whilst procedure in court in the UK is ponderous it is nothing if not methodical and if you examine the daily reporting and count up how few questions and answers there I submit you'd conclude that would account for only a small part of the day's proceedings.
 
LastSeenWearing said:
As you look at the image the person who is being carried head is hanging down to the left of the image and the legs hanging dangling to the right. It looks to me like an man carrying an unconscious person in his arms ready to throw in the water! Maybe I have a good imagination but that is what I see.
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This is what I 'see' too. Agreeing about imagination though
 
Do they have cctv of his third visit to orpf or has it just not been mentioned in the write up?

I wonder did he park at the same spot on visit number 3 and therefore the flashing of his car lights got picked up again. I so wish all the other houses had cctv so it could’ve helped Libby and this case :(
 
Steve2021 said:
I feel I would like to say something more general. I am not particularly a follower of real crime and I very much doubt I will ever appear on this forum again. I happened across the news of Libby's disappearance at the time (and that of the equally sad case of Leah Croucher) and it just struck something in my heart. I have followed it closely here ever since but only now chosen to make any comment on it. I feel deeply uncomfortable about doing so. This poor girl has lost her life and the lives of her family, friends, and very likely also the good samaritans who sought to intervene have been irretrievably ruined. When discussing the merits or otherwise of eachothers opinions let us never forget that it is Libby and they that are all that matters.
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Yes quite right! And this Sunday and Monday will mark exactly two years since those horrific events
 
HollyHunter9 said:
This is also what I struggle with...why the last visit?

Was it ~
1. To check if she was still hanging about there after the rape? (2 hours later is a long time to wait to check if someone you had consensual sex with outdoors on a freezing winters night is ok)
2. To put her in the river?
3. To check if her body was gone after putting her in the river?
4. To retrieve evidence left behind?
5. To see if the police where there?

Also the fact he went home and bathed and washed his clothes before going back too and didn't take his phone either.

Also can someone please confirm; was the other woman he stalked that night before or after his encounter with Libby?
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The second woman was after. If I'm understanding what we heard correctly and I'm not saying I dud - it was after his third visit to the park when he once again prowled the student area. From how I read it his car is seen as another woman turns into street. He then appears at the opposite end of that street presumably to wait for her. When she doesn't he masturbates into to condom and the prosecutor suggests he must have found the bollards sexually arousing if he hadn't been waiting for her

That's how I understood that bit of cross examination IMO.

Two things stood out for me:
One I think she could have been victim no 2 that night.

Two the students that had sucessfully gotten in to the Welly club that night would be starting to arrive home
 
Just to add my thoughts about the third visit to Oak Road- if he was so concerned about Libby that he had to go back and check that she hadn't fallen again or whatever, wouldn't he have taken his phone so that he could call 999 for help if necessary? That he left his phone behind just tells me that this was not the reason for the visit.
 
I think I've worked out what PR is fiddling with when he's sitting sideways in the car on spidercam. He takes something out of his pocket and I believe it's a condom. He either opens it, or is fiddling with it as he sits there, and then when the other car drives off, he puts something back into his pocket. I watched it here: CCTV obtained by ITV News is shown to jury in Libby Squire murder trial | ITV News
 
@Newthoughts I agree. I know that escalation from offences like burglary and indecent acts etc. to rape and murder is not uncommon by any means, but I cannot get my head around the fact that he completely changed his MO with Libby. And if it IS a condom he's opening/preparing in his car before he gets her into it, one wonders why a) he didn't 'just' do this usual thing and b) why he didn't use it?
 
Steve2021 said:
Sorry it was my opinion, I should have said that. Certainly whilst procedure in court in the UK is ponderous it is nothing if not methodical and if you examine the daily reporting and count up how few questions and answers there I submit you'd conclude that would account for only a small part of the day's proceedings.
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We've heard the edited highlights of salient point. We didn't even know till yesterday that only her jacket was missing. I'm sure a full list of clothing would have been detailed.

The forensicd must have contained far, far more than we've heard

I'm pretty sure every bit of CCTV would have been explained as well.

I agree that we that only heard a small part.
 
Winterbells said:
@Newthoughts I agree. I know that escalation from offences like burglary and indecent acts etc. to rape and murder is not uncommon by any means, but I cannot get my head around the fact that he completely changed his MO with Libby. And if it IS a condom he's opening/preparing in his car before he gets her into it, one wonders why a) he didn't 'just' do this usual thing and b) why he didn't use it?
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Time?

Didn't think he'd need to?

He only uses condoms when there an isn't an audience to scare and just fills them to leave as a calling card?

I'd go with 2 and 3 in that list.

I think he's ready to escalate (early trip to the park that night and drone footage - the prosecutor said it'd be a quiet spot that night and I see no reason to disbelieve him). Libby the the first 'lone' vulnerable woman he's come across at that point in his offending?

And maybe time. With a condom on and just bollards to look at he took seconds. We've heard he didn't even remove her pants.

He doesn't seem to have an usual thing or MO.

He ejaculates on doors and windows when women can see him. Doesn't use a condom when can be seen- MO one

Condoms are usually left when the women haven't been there to see him - for example after thefts - MO two

Breaks into houses and steals sexual personal items - MO three.

Every rapist and murderer has a first time.

Personally the only reason I can see to use the condom when them second woman he stalks that night doesn't materialise is to leave somewhere. It's unlikely any evidence would have been found there if he hadn't used and lost it.

All just my opinions
 
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So, if he's fiddling with a condom in his car doorway, it must be because he'd given up on using Libby as his audience, what with the Romanians being present, so he was thinking about going for MO two perhaps? (What I meant by changing his MO, was he's been masturbating 'only' thus far and yes, of course, every rapist/murderer has a first time).
 
Newthoughts said:
The second woman was after. If I'm understanding what we heard correctly and I'm not saying I dud - it was after his third visit to the park when he once again prowled the student area. From how I read it his car is seen as another woman turns into street. He then appears at the opposite end of that street presumably to wait for her. When she doesn't he masturbates into to condom and the prosecutor suggests he must have found the bollards sexually arousing if he hadn't been waiting for her

That's how I understood that bit of cross examination IMO.

Two things stood out for me:
One I think she could have been victim no 2 that night.

Two the students that had sucessfully gotten in to the Welly club that night would be starting to arrive home
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Yes I remember now, thankyou for jogging my memory. I wonder if the last woman realises what a lucky escape she had? :eek:
 
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