UK UK - Manchester, 'Angel of the Meadow' WhtFem Skeletal, 16-30, buried, Jan'10

[Keine Engel]

...The dress has been torn off, IMO., so she put up a fight, perhaps, the straps appear torn, I dont see a bow, just twisted material, indicating that perhaps the dress was wrapped around something, the handbag, shoe or even a murder weapon.

It looks to be tied in more a knot than 'bow', like when moving or disposing of her body?

 

[Oriana]

It looks to be tied in more a knot than 'bow', like when moving or disposing of her body?

I wonder if she was rolled up in the carpet or the carpets were simply used to cover her up. I wonder what the width of the gap was between the fence and wall where she'd lain undiscovered for years, if it was quite narrow? If the killer had tied the dress was this to aid him lifting her up and over the fence, followed by the carpets? But she wasn't wearing the dress... doh! So he put her into the gap, threw shoe, bag and coat over, then covered the lot with carpet. And no one saw him doing any of this... So the Guinness sign is random rubbish IMO probably there longer than Angel was, unless there's DNA on it. And the killer was calm and collected enough to make sure there was nothing to ID her in the jacket pockets, I.e. bus/train tickets etc., and empty her handbag. The empty handbag would have definitely contained at the very least her purse, some makeup, keys perhaps and some form of ID such as a travel card, or even a library ticket? So was she robbed as well as the rest of the unspeakable things that happened to her? And the killer, does he walk amongst us? Is he sat on the sofa next to his unsuspecting partner reading these words right now?

 

[Blurgle]

The ^ above also explains the whole 'shamrock' thing.

​

So all this brings me to thinking did she go missing on or close to a St Paddy's Day?
(17th March)

St. Patrick's Day is much, much less of a party holiday outside North America. At the time of this lady's death pubs in Ireland itself were absolutely forbidden to open on the day; it was a holy day of obligation and you were supposed to be in church, not drinking. (Things have changed a great deal since, but even now it's nothing like in the US.)

Also, this lady died during the very worst of the Troubles, when it was not wise to appear overly Irish anywhere in England. I can't see any pub in Manchester openly celebrating St. Patrick's Day in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Bit of hope]

I wonder if she was rolled up in the carpet or the carpets were simply used to cover her up. I wonder what the width of the gap was between the fence and wall where she'd lain undiscovered for years, if it was quite narrow? If the killer had tied the dress was this to aid him lifting her up and over the fence, followed by the carpets? But she wasn't wearing the dress... doh! So he put her into the gap, threw shoe, bag and coat over, then covered the lot with carpet. And no one saw him doing any of this... So the Guinness sign is random rubbish IMO probably there longer than Angel was, unless there's DNA on it. And the killer was calm and collected enough to make sure there was nothing to ID her in the jacket pockets, I.e. bus/train tickets etc., and empty her handbag. The empty handbag would have definitely contained at the very least her purse, some makeup, keys perhaps and some form of ID such as a travel card, or even a library ticket? So was she robbed as well as the rest of the unspeakable things that happened to her? And the killer, does he walk amongst us? Is he sat on the sofa next to his unsuspecting partner reading these words right now?

Good writing Oriana. I agree with you that the Guinness chard was just rubbish, landed there somehow during the late 60's far before she was dumped at the site. Also I believe some pieces of the carpet were dumped there and have nothing to do with her. Sadly we don't know that for sure because the cops didn't release any connection (blood, DNA) between a certain carpet and her, so IIRR we still not know in what carpet she was rapped. Or did I miss something?

From Al Ka's Facebook site:

"The victim had been wrapped in carpet before being buried, and three different colours of carpet were found at the site: orange, blue and dark blue. The blue carpet appeared to have been cut to fit a Ford Cortina, with a hole for the gearstick"

 

[Bit of hope]

St. Patrick's Day is much, much less of a party holiday outside North America. At the time of this lady's death pubs in Ireland itself were absolutely forbidden to open on the day; it was a holy day of obligation and you were supposed to be in church, not drinking. (Things have changed a great deal since, but even now it's nothing like in the US.)

Also, this lady died during the very worst of the Troubles, when it was not wise to appear overly Irish anywhere in England. I can't see any pub in Manchester openly celebrating St. Patrick's Day in the 70s and 80s.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Oriana]

I have been informed (by a former employee of the Beer House who follows this) that the Beer House pub is far from demolished, it is actually open and trading as The Angel. Also, interestingly, and these are not my words, so I emphasize the word QUOTE " That pub was full of weirdos and miscreants, namely a paedophile ring who gathered there in the late 80's and early 90's, the kids who lived upstairs were badly exploited by after time drinkers during lock in's. Men going up and down the stairs.. " I was under the impression that my informant may have been the one who blew the whistle...
Miller Street where the body of Angel was found was just across the street." I was given the name of the landlord of the time, a former undertaker of all things. I wont name him here, but I have googled him, though I'm unsure if he is still alive, or when he took the lease over of the pub. Apparently the Beer House was raided, and a paedophile gang were put on trial, but the Landlord escaped charges. It was then closed down. How true this is I dont know, but it kind of fits the area's history which is common knowledge.

 

[Oriana]

I dont remember any St Patrick day celebrations in England back then. Might have changed now, they celebrate Halloween now, but not back in the day.

 

[Oriana]

Okay, I'm keeping up the momentum here, I dont want this lady to be forgotten, she's all of ours daughter. Just suppose that the police have the DNA of the killer, but he's never been arrested before? I'm wondering if there are partial dna samples in the possession of the police from other unsolved cases. Do we have a new potential serial killer here?

 

[dotr]

Maybe "Angel" worked at an Indian or Middle Eastern restaurant/bar as a hostess?
Angel of the Meadow
"She was most likely European but possibly from India or the Middle East."

Sex Female
Race Unknown
Location Manchester, England
Found January 25, 2010
Unidentified for 9 years
Postmortem interval 30 - 40 Years
Body condition Skeletal
Age approximation 18-35
Height approximation 155cm - 170cm / 5'1 - 5'7
Weight approximation N/A
Cause of death Homicide

 

[GhostWrighter]

With regards to carpet - one of the posters during FB appeal mentioned that pattern of folds on this particular carpet seems to suggest it was carpet from stairs.

While I pondered and personally thought that folds could happened while carpet was laying there folded and dumped for decades I do think it is excellent and quite valid thought and might be actually correct. As it is quite narrow and long it could perfectly fit stairs.

(But would not other inhabitants not notice? And how easy or difficult is it to rip away carpet from stairs?) Anyway, still very valid suggestion so adding it to her thread.

Personally I believe you could be on to something but perhaps it was a runner as they became fashionable in the 1970s

 

[wishBones1962]

The 'pinafore' does look homemade. The buttons seem be an odd choice if on a new (bought) garment and it's doesn't have any labels where I'd expect?
I cut them out myself, that is on t-shirts, dresses but only on stuff when they irritate my neck, so even I wouldn't do that with a pinafore/apron.

The pattern & material is certainly quite unusual?

I've posted pics again as I keep having go back to 1st page to find a link to them.

IMO -if the pinafore was sewn at a school/or home, a seamstress could tell if it was commercially made or not.
I may have missed it if this topic was already discussed.

 

[dotr]

It looks to be tied in more a knot than 'bow', like when moving or disposing of her body?

Someone wearing a dress might tie it up for better freedom of movement if they found themselves climbing a fence, or to hoist it up to attend to an urgent bathroom call after a few too many ?
Maybe the perp took notice of the woman in that particularly vulnerable position, attacked her, then threw some random carpet lying about, on top of the victim?
speculation, imo.

 

[Bit of hope]

Maybe "Angel" worked at an Indian or Middle Eastern restaurant/bar as a hostess?
Angel of the Meadow
"She was most likely European but possibly from India or the Middle East."

Sex Female
Race Unknown
Location Manchester, England
Found January 25, 2010
Unidentified for 9 years
Postmortem interval 30 - 40 Years
Body condition Skeletal
Age approximation 18-35
Height approximation 155cm - 170cm / 5'1 - 5'7
Weight approximation N/A
Cause of death Homicide

I'm still not sure how they came from "most likely European to possibly from India or the Middle-East"....Did they found "evidence" of that in her DNA, Isotopes? We are talking about a huge amount of countries. My interpretation of it is: she may have come from anywhere....

 

[Giuc0]

I'm still not sure how they came from "most likely European to possibly from India or the Middle-East"....

Take it with three grains of salt, but from my understanding, she is of mixed ethnicities.

Did they found "evidence" of that in her DNA, Isotopes? We are talking about a huge amount of countries.

Again, take it with three grains of salts, but :
1) Isotopes are far from being reliable. I remember a case in Australia where isotopes said she was of America (or another foreign country). When JD became ID, she actually grew up & lived... in Australia! But in a place not known to isotope scientists. I can't exactly remember the case, but I put isotopes' reliability with two or three grains of salt. Sorry for being a bit of Nestorix with it right now *Apology* *Reverence*

2) IMHO, very humble opinion, they used anthropology. That's it.


In my very humble opinion, she is of mixed ethnicity. I say also that it would not even faze me if she had family dispersed in more than one country while she was alone in UK. Before the Internet & social media, it was much harder to keep in touch and international phone calls were astronomically expensive compared to nowadays (with Whatsapp and such).

#LOEM, Level Of Evidence Myself (from a French social media hashtag, used by doctors, vets... to mean that it's only anecdotal evidence I have read 0 study about, I could only witness it: #NDPMM, Niveau De Preuve Moi-Même). I am a Jewish Sepharadi by my mom, so in my anthropological features, you'll find features of North African countries. Does it mean that I am of Northern African citizenship? Not at all. My only citizenship is French, clearly. I was born and raised in France my whole life, still living in the same city I was born & raised.
(And I am a polyglot (for readers who don't know, polyglot means speaking at least two languages fluently. I say so because on social medias, English-speaking people thought that it was swearing, so I explain for any potential reader who reads this word for the first time), a passion which has also always been a tool for cognitive rehabilitation with my perinatal brain injury... informally done, out of a medical setting. Languages, law and international logistics is the kind of mixture professional field I want to work in. Call me a bit crazy if you feel like it because factually, my brain injury makes my brain a bit strange. What can we ask more for working with my disability? End of OT, or mods will hit my fingers with a ruler).

(OT again: Bit Of Hope, I know that you know the meaning of "polyglot". But since you are not the only reader here, I don't want people to think that "polyglot" is a swearing word because they have never encountered it before. I don't want to be scolded by a mod or by an admin for bad language... when polyglot is far from swearing, insult... An ounce of prevention worth three pounds of cure!)

 

[Giuc0]

Ok, silly question.
Could had she been adopted by a UK couple overseas and brought back in UK?
I was thinking about this possibility because of the ethnicities found & the fact that international adoption started in the 50's-60's.

if my hypothesis holds water, it can explain why no DNA match was found in UK !

 

[Bit of hope]

Ok, silly question.
Could had she been adopted by a UK couple overseas and brought back in UK?
I was thinking about this possibility because of the ethnicities found & the fact that international adoption started in the 50's-60's.

if my hypothesis holds water, it can explain why no DNA match was found in UK !

Silly answer back....could it be that she was never reported missing...do you know if they have a DNA database where people of the missing can give DNA? Like they have in The Netherlands.

OT....I'm a polyglot too....really....did people think it was swearing? Makes me laugh.... sorry....

BTW you explicitly say you are Jewish from your mother's side, but I've learned that you can only be Jewish through maternal lines, so only if your mother is/was Jewish.

Edit to add.

 

[Giuc0]

Could be never reported missing. Or the missing report lost and destroyed.
Anything.
Second question, nowadays yes. But I don't know the answer beyond that.

For the adoption, baby trafficking was quite widespread in those days. Stolen babies in maternity wards, sold babies... was a thing.
I was thinking about the adoption angle because of Tanzania and East Asia ethnicities.
In such case, the authorities sway the rug under the carpet and don't even try to collect DNA of adopted children & biological families. Falsified birth certificates and adoption registers were also way too common.
Zembla made three reports about overseas fraudulent adoptions.

This + the range of ethnicities make me think that we have to not only look at unreported missing, but also, trafficked children for international adoptions.
A needle in a haystack!

The person thinking that it was swearing was... on Twitter

 

[Giuc0]

BTW you explicitly say you are Jewish from your mother's side, but I've learned that you can only be Jewish through maternal lines, so only if your mother is/was Jewish.

My mother is Jewish

 

[Bit of hope]

My mother is Jewish

I know...hahaha you told me....I just wondered why you explicitly said that about your mother....for me it's obvious...because otherwise you would not be (called) Jewish. Interesting btw all the different faces of Jewish people around the world coming from different origins.

 

[Giuc0]

Back to our UID, we have to find a needle in a haystack!
Not only unreported/lost/destroyed MP reports, but also, victims of baby trafficking.
I do not even know where to start!