UK UK - Manchester, 'Angel of the Meadow' WhtFem Skeletal, 16-30, buried, Jan'10

[dotr]

New case on Doe Network: Isabella Skelton
3965DFUK - Isabella Skelton

Age is off by 5 years, and went missing in June 6th 1969.
I hardly see a similarity with the recon.

However, she went missing at Manchester, and she was rumoured that she went to US for work.
She worked for a courrier service. The only drawback is that the time of disappearence is unknown.

Viamichelin was unable to give me a distance without the exact locations, I had to rely on Google :-/

As you can see, the distance is around 3 miles and it takes only around 10mn to get there by car.

Thanks for the link, because Isabella may have worked as a courier to the US, posted on this thread too..
NY - NY - Ellery, WhtFem 193UFNY, 33-37, GSW, off Route 17, Dec'83

 

[dotr]

Nicely done short video, gives a good sense of the area.

 

[ShakerSince92]

The man haunted by the mystery of the Angel of the Meadow

Article from the Manchester Evening News. Fella suggesting the lady worked at a working mens club in Longsight Manchester. His recollection of the female differs from the Facial reconstruction though.

 

[dotr]

The man haunted by the mystery of the Angel of the Meadow

Article from the Manchester Evening News. Fella suggesting the lady worked at a working mens club in Longsight Manchester. His recollection of the female differs from the Facial reconstruction though.

So interesting, thanks for posting!
From link.. rbbm.
''It’s a night Alec Whittle remembers in acute detail.
He had taken himself off on his motorbike for a pint at a club in Longsight.
It was the early 1970s and Alec, then about 22, had just left the Army.
When he arrived at the club on Stanley Grove, he walked straight up to the bar and started chatting to the barmaid, ordering a pint of bitter - most likely Red Barrel.
He had taken a shine to her, he says, and remembers being shocked when she unbuttoned the neck of her shirt to show him bruises on her neck and shoulder.''

''He specifically remembers seeing a pinafore dress hung up by the bar - something that was discovered with the body decades later.''

''However he says the mousy-haired, medium built woman he was speaking to that night looked “nothing like” the facial reconstruction image.

“She was attractive,” he says.''
“She said she didn’t have any relatives here.

“She was not local but she sounded English, or maybe Dutch. But not Mancunian.''

 

[Al Ka]

I have been thinking about her yesterday and today.

Yesterday, 25th January was 10 years anniversary since Angel of the Meadow remains were found.

I am glad to see that any article was printed on her day even though personally if there was printed version I would beat it over the head of journo for burying the major fact that it has been 10 years until the last sentence. She deserved hmm better than that. She died alone, she was buried alone and she lay there for decade, forgotten and alone.

I am though very glad to see photo of the flowers

(click on photo to enlarge)

Even though I don't know if this is stock photo or photo from her 2015 burial, but I would be very happy to learn that someone did lay flowers on her unmarked grave on her sad 10th anniversary.

My last week calls to try to locate approximate location of her grave at Southern Cemetary were not sucessfull. Mind you it is 2nd largest cemetary in Europe.
Southern Cemetery, Manchester - Wikipedia

 

[dotr]

Wondering if the woman's "mousy brown" hair was originally or usually blonde, also if they have a description of the man who told her to shush? speculation.
Re-post to include some other details, rbbm.
The man haunted by the mystery of the Angel of the Meadow
Jan 25 2020

“She was on her own at the bar and the place was practically empty. I did know her a bit from previous times I’d been there.''

“I told her that nobody had the right to do something like that to her. I wanted to take her away on my motorbike.''

“We were talking and I said nobody had a right to do that to her.

“Then this bloke came up and she told me to ‘shush’ and sit down.”

“I did a bit of research of my own and I went to the planning department to see if they had any planning for the clubs on Stanley Grove, in Longsight.''

“I remember the dress. It was a distinctive pattern, a Great Gatsby type pattern. I remember that pattern well - I used to doodle it.

 

[R. Towle]

Just a small thought about the Guiness measuring doodah. Is it possible that it could be linked to the change from Imperial to Metric measures? Maybe it was handed out to all bar staff and others to help with conversions? The change from Imperial to Metric happened around 1965 so its within the window. These things may have been around for a while for people to refer to when unsure on converting from Imperial to Metric.

Thank you Coffeeandacig for finding this. I have spent days (some time ago) searching for anything even slightly similar to guiness chart style and this is absolutely spot on. Our chart was definitely made in the same marketing campaign as those shakers you have found.

It has also cross my mind that measuring chart could be just that, measuring chart, not associated with pub at all, just an item made bearing their logo but used for measuring something (anything).

When you look on the right side of the chart you can actually see little blue triangles on the chart used for measuring.

 

[Bit of hope]

Possible match on DN :
Vidya Devi Ginda
3957DFUK - Vidya Devi Ginda
She went missing in 1973, 31yo when missing so one year older than the estimated range.
Went missing in West Midlands, ca 120km from Manchester (source: www.viamichelin.fr which is a French mapping site. Hope this site is allowed per the TOS). First picture is a mapping screenshot.
I hate being given a distance in miles!

Height & weight given in imperial scale when the UK Missing Person Unit gives the estimated in metric. Ugh! UK Missing Persons Unit
And I'm not in the mood at converting measures right now.

So, not über confident on this one because of measurements mess. Ugh!

What makes me think of this possible match is:
- nose
- the face shape quite similar to reconstruction
- confession from husband not matching forensic
- body never found despite conviction


Thoughts anyone?

I'm having problems seeing pictures on the doe network files. Found this article about Vidya Ginda showing also a picture of her. Vidya Ginda: Heartbroken daughter reveals mother's body could be buried in Wolverhampton home I'm hesitant. I just can't see Vidya going "on a stroll" first of all and also not with a dress found with Jane Doe, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Giuc0]

Same photo as the one on DN actually.

 

[dotr]

April 3 2020
Manchester's Vilest: UNSOLVED - The Angel of the Meadow
''These Manchester’s Vilest articles concentrate on some of the true crime stories of the city and its surrounding areas – but this is the first time we’ve featured a murder that is yet to be solved.

Both the victim and the killer are still unknown, and with this being a murder that likely took place in the 70’s or 80’s it’s almost certain that someone out there knows what happened all those years ago.

The case is still open and detectives continue to follow leads or information on the case, but many argue that with such a large time period where the victim was still undiscovered – it’s almost impossible to solve. Well, let’s see about that shall we…''

''They believed her to be aged between 18 – 35 when she died, which was sometime between 1975 and 1988. Her height was between 5ft 1in and 5ft 7in and she was missing her upper right premolar, something that would have been highly noticeable when she smiled.''

''if you have any information you should call police on 0161 856 5978 or 101. Reports can also be made anonymously to Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.''

 

[Bit of hope]

April 3 2020
Manchester's Vilest: UNSOLVED - The Angel of the Meadow
''These Manchester’s Vilest articles concentrate on some of the true crime stories of the city and its surrounding areas – but this is the first time we’ve featured a murder that is yet to be solved.

Both the victim and the killer are still unknown, and with this being a murder that likely took place in the 70’s or 80’s it’s almost certain that someone out there knows what happened all those years ago.

The case is still open and detectives continue to follow leads or information on the case, but many argue that with such a large time period where the victim was still undiscovered – it’s almost impossible to solve. Well, let’s see about that shall we…''

''They believed her to be aged between 18 – 35 when she died, which was sometime between 1975 and 1988. Her height was between 5ft 1in and 5ft 7in and she was missing her upper right premolar, something that would have been highly noticeable when she smiled.''

''if you have any information you should call police on 0161 856 5978 or 101. Reports can also be made anonymously to Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.''

Thanks @dotr
Like them I still didn't give up on her.

 

[Bit of hope]

I guess they checked this out already..but I keep on thinking about this missing person from The Netherlands, Riek Degeling, although the stats are kind of troubling. She is added not that long ago. Unfortunately I couldn't find a picture of her smiling. Riek Degeling

 

[dotr]

I guess they checked this out already..but I keep on thinking about this missing person from The Netherlands, Riek Degeling, although the stats are kind of troubling. She is added not that long ago. Unfortunately I couldn't find a picture of her smiling. Riek Degeling

O/t In this photo below, Riek reminds me a bit of the uid with duck socks found in the suitcase, imo.

 

[Bit of hope]

O/t In this photo below, Riek reminds me a bit of the uid with duck socks found in the suitcase, imo.

Impossible...Riek went missing somewhere around 1975-1976.

 

[Bit of hope]

Possibly already posted....."bumping" Manchester's Vilest: UNSOLVED - The Angel of the Meadow Yes @dotr you posted it before.....

 

[Al Ka]

New case on Doe Network: Isabella Skelton
3965DFUK - Isabella Skelton

Age is off by 5 years, and went missing in June 6th 1969.
I hardly see a similarity with the recon.

However, she went missing at Manchester, and she was rumoured that she went to US for work.
She worked for a courrier service. The only drawback is that the time of disappearence is unknown.

Viamichelin was unable to give me a distance without the exact locations, I had to rely on Google :-/

As you can see, the distance is around 3 miles and it takes only around 10mn to get there by car.

Isabella Skelton has been ruled out some time ago as per detective of Angel Meadow case.

 

[dotr]

New case on Doe Network: Isabella Skelton
3965DFUK - Isabella Skelton

Age is off by 5 years, and went missing in June 6th 1969.
I hardly see a similarity with the recon.

However, she went missing at Manchester, and she was rumoured that she went to US for work.
She worked for a courrier service. The only drawback is that the time of disappearence is unknown.

Viamichelin was unable to give me a distance without the exact locations, I had to rely on Google :-/

As you can see, the distance is around 3 miles and it takes only around 10mn to get there by car.

Started thread..
UK - Isabella (Isabel/Izzy) Skelton (formerly,McDowall) 35, Manchester, ( Rumoured in US) 6 June 1969

 

[Bit of hope]

What do we think about this? Not that it's going to help much in identifying this woman. If this killer did it it would have been an at random murder/murder of opportunity IMO.

In 2018, it was suggested by investigative journalist Tim Hicks that the Angel of the Meadow case could be connected to convicted killer Christopher Halliwell

North Yorks Enquirer | Christopher Halliwell: The Secret Murders Part 3

Unknown: The Angel Meadows body (Case 1)

The victim of this murder has never been identified. Her body was discovered by builders in Manchester City Centre. She had been badly beaten, then partially stripped wrapped in carpet and dumped in the ‘Angel Meadows’ area of Manchester. Construction workers discovered the body in 2010. A shoe was taken possibly as a trophy.

Greater Manchester Police (GMP) have established the following about her:

• She was born sometime between 1950 and 1954 and was aged between 18 and 30 when she was murdered.
• Her death is believed to have occurred in the 70s or 80s.
• The victim was between 5ft 1in and 5ft 8in tall and was a size 12.
• She was probably European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian sub-continent.
• She had fillings and was missing the first upper right pre-molar, which would have been visible when she smiled broadly.
• The woman’s body was found alongside her green pinafore dress with large buttons, blue bra, jumper and tights. A jacket and a shoe were also recovered. The handbag was empty.
• There were three different colours of carpet at the scene – orange, blue and dark blue. The blue carpet appeared to have been cut to fit a Ford Cortina, with holes for a gear-stick. Some of the carpet was burned.

Daily Mail report with more information here.

She was thought at one point to be Helen Sage (Case 18) but this possibility was eliminated. BBC Report here.

Why the authors believe Halliwell should be considered as a suspect

• Halliwell may have visited Manchester on narrow boat holidays on the Bridgewater, Ashford and Rochedale Canals, or he may have worked in the city as a builder. It is entirely possible he had knowledge of Manchester.
• The body of Julie Jones (Case 20) was also found wrapped in carpet.
• The Angel Meadows murder was committed in the 1970s or the 1980s. Halliwell was born in 1964. He was imprisoned between 1985 and 1987 for car theft and burglary. He confessed to having strangled a woman to a cellmate. So Halliwell could have been active as a serial killer in the relevant timeframe up to 1985 and then from 1987 to 1989.
• Halliwell burned clothes and discarded seat covers and floor mats from his car after abducting Sian O’Callaghan, to destroy forensic evidence. This is consistent with destroying or dumping the carpet from the car used to transport the deceased.
• Halliwell tried to destroy evidence and this is consistent with the handbag being emptied.
• The deposition site at Angel Meadows is 0.6 of a mile from the Rochdale Canal, which connects the Leeds and Liverpool Canal via the Bridgwater Canal and 0.5 of a mile from the River Irwell. Both are fishing spots.

GMP have considered killers Ronald Castree and Peter Tobin and serial rapist James Lloyd as suspects, but they have not been charged.

 

[Al Ka]

What do we think about this? Not that it's going to help much in identifying this woman. If this killer did it it would have been an at random murder/murder of opportunity IMO.

In 2018, it was suggested by investigative journalist Tim Hicks that the Angel of the Meadow case could be connected to convicted killer Christopher Halliwell

North Yorks Enquirer | Christopher Halliwell: The Secret Murders Part 3

Unknown: The Angel Meadows body (Case 1)

The victim of this murder has never been identified. Her body was discovered by builders in Manchester City Centre. She had been badly beaten, then partially stripped wrapped in carpet and dumped in the ‘Angel Meadows’ area of Manchester. Construction workers discovered the body in 2010. A shoe was taken possibly as a trophy.

Greater Manchester Police (GMP) have established the following about her:

• She was born sometime between 1950 and 1954 and was aged between 18 and 30 when she was murdered.
• Her death is believed to have occurred in the 70s or 80s.
• The victim was between 5ft 1in and 5ft 8in tall and was a size 12.
• She was probably European but could have come from the Middle East or Indian sub-continent.
• She had fillings and was missing the first upper right pre-molar, which would have been visible when she smiled broadly.
• The woman’s body was found alongside her green pinafore dress with large buttons, blue bra, jumper and tights. A jacket and a shoe were also recovered. The handbag was empty.
• There were three different colours of carpet at the scene – orange, blue and dark blue. The blue carpet appeared to have been cut to fit a Ford Cortina, with holes for a gear-stick. Some of the carpet was burned.

Daily Mail report with more information here.

She was thought at one point to be Helen Sage (Case 18) but this possibility was eliminated. BBC Report here.

Why the authors believe Halliwell should be considered as a suspect

• Halliwell may have visited Manchester on narrow boat holidays on the Bridgewater, Ashford and Rochedale Canals, or he may have worked in the city as a builder. It is entirely possible he had knowledge of Manchester.
• The body of Julie Jones (Case 20) was also found wrapped in carpet.
• The Angel Meadows murder was committed in the 1970s or the 1980s. Halliwell was born in 1964. He was imprisoned between 1985 and 1987 for car theft and burglary. He confessed to having strangled a woman to a cellmate. So Halliwell could have been active as a serial killer in the relevant timeframe up to 1985 and then from 1987 to 1989.
• Halliwell burned clothes and discarded seat covers and floor mats from his car after abducting Sian O’Callaghan, to destroy forensic evidence. This is consistent with destroying or dumping the carpet from the car used to transport the deceased.
• Halliwell tried to destroy evidence and this is consistent with the handbag being emptied.
• The deposition site at Angel Meadows is 0.6 of a mile from the Rochdale Canal, which connects the Leeds and Liverpool Canal via the Bridgwater Canal and 0.5 of a mile from the River Irwell. Both are fishing spots.

GMP have considered killers Ronald Castree and Peter Tobin and serial rapist James Lloyd as suspects, but they have not been charged.

This was discussed in missing Helen Sage thread about a year ago (missing from Manchester and ruled out to be Angel of the Meadow). Writer of this article, together with another ex police man write news articles and books on serial killers...

I follow one of the two writers on fb and read many of his theories...

While it is good to revisit cases when new serial killer is caught, attaching random cases to them (or Halliwell) when too many things do not add up bring danger that real perpetrator of the crime might get of the hook.

I have no idea who killed her, and yes, it could have been serial killer, but personally, just from all details what those two writers stated, it was not likely Halliwell.

Link to under-reported Helen Sage thread where it was discussed - UK - UK - Helen Sage, 22, Manchester, Aug 1997

Writers also mentioned unsolved murder of Julie Jones in Manchester. That case haunts me how similar it is to Angel of the Meadow so I mention it again. I have written about it on page 2 of this thread about a year ago. Here is copy-paste.

====
I have to also mention case of murdered Julie Jones from 1998. Detectives from her case cooperated with Helen Sage investigators as both women were working in the same part of Manchester.

Julie's murder and circumstances how she was found remind me a lot of Angel Meadow case despite that alleged timeframe of Angel Meadow point that it might have happened decade of even two prior to Julie's murder.

(photo of Julie Jones)

Julie Jones' body was found naked wrapped in a carpet under bushes in Old Smithfield Market, Shudehill, Manchester, on 3 July 1998. She died of severe crush injuries.
---
Her clothes and jewellery have never been found.

Link to article - Julie Jones murder in Manchester: Mother's plea to catch killer

Similarities with Angel Meadow case: (Julie was found outside, also hidden in the city centre, also wrapped in the carpet, naked, also no jewellery present, also with very severe injuries)

I have not checked on map (yet) how far is Smithfield Market from Angel Meadow area but I am curious to find out. There might be no link whatsoever between two cases but certainly interesting similarities.

 

[Al Ka]

Only now rereading this old news article about Julie Jones murder, I have noticed her mum statement -

"I know who murdered my daughter but I haven't got the proof and the police haven't.

"I wish somebody who knows these people - because I know them - would just give the police a ring and give them a lead.

Link - Julie Jones murder in Manchester: Mother's plea to catch killer

wow