UK UK - Manchester, 'Angel of the Meadow' WhtFem Skeletal, 16-30, buried, Jan'10

[SimsGuy67]

This reconstruction, posted by MudaMudaMuda. I didn't wanna recognize her, I really didn't. I just couldn't help but note a familial resemblance. Praying I'm just paranoid. It's a pretty common face for Europe. It's just been bugging me for so long and I just needed to get it out. I really don't know what to think. Is my brain noting things that aren't there? Am I unconsciously inserting myself into situations I have no place in?

 

[Susikatze]

Do you have a possible name for her? Really, anything is worth calling it in

 

[SimsGuy67]

I do. This woman shares the same last name of my grandmother and both her family and my grandmothers family originated from the same area. She looks exactly like my grandmother and members of her family too... I'd suspect she'd be ruled out though, or even mentioned on this thread.

1965DFUK - Christina Nuala Bracken

 

[dotr]

I do. This woman shares the same last name of my grandmother and both her family and my grandmothers family originated from the same area. She looks exactly like my grandmother and members of her family too... I'd suspect she'd be ruled out though, or even mentioned on this thread.

1965DFUK - Christina Nuala Bracken

Intriguing, off to bump the thread for CNB..

UK - UK - Christina Bracken, 38, Swansea, Wales, 19 May 1979

Christina Nuala Bracken Case Classification: Missing Missing Since: May 19, 1979 Location Last Seen: Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom Physical Description Date of Birth: Circa 1941 Age: 38 years old Race: White Gender: Female Height: Unknown Weight: Unknown Hair Color: Unknown Eye Color: Blue...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Susikatze]

Intriguing, off to bump the thread for CNB..

UK - UK - Christina Bracken, 38, Swansea, Wales, 19 May 1979

Christina Nuala Bracken Case Classification: Missing Missing Since: May 19, 1979 Location Last Seen: Swansea, Wales, United Kingdom Physical Description Date of Birth: Circa 1941 Age: 38 years old Race: White Gender: Female Height: Unknown Weight: Unknown Hair Color: Unknown Eye Color: Blue...

www.websleuths.com

Worth calling her in, definitely. There is a resemblance to the second reconstruction. But would a nun wear civilian clothing? I guess probably yes, when traveling, some orders allow it.

 

[SimsGuy67]

Worth calling her in, definitely. There is a resemblance to the second reconstruction. But would a nun wear civilian clothing? I guess probably yes, when traveling, some orders allow it.

I'm really not sure... My guess is she probably would when going out for non convent related things. She was shopping for her mother that day, which is obviously not convent related.

 

[SimsGuy67]

I think Christina would probably have been ruled out. DNA testing apparently ruled out over 400 women.

Angel of the Meadow

In 2010, skeletal remains of a murdered (and likely assaulted) woman were found in Manchester, UK. Will the UK permit advanced DNA testing to identify her?

dnasolves.com

 

[Susikatze]

I think Christina would probably have been ruled out. DNA testing apparently ruled out over 400 women.

Angel of the Meadow

In 2010, skeletal remains of a murdered (and likely assaulted) woman were found in Manchester, UK. Will the UK permit advanced DNA testing to identify her?

dnasolves.com

I guess they did very basic DNA testing, only MtDNA or a very basic autosomal DNA. Also they only compare to women reported missing who are already in a database. Genetic genealogy is still not allowed in Europe.

 

[ZaZara]

Lengthy, rbbm.

Angel of the Meadow

In 2010, skeletal remains of a murdered (and likely assaulted) woman were found in Manchester, UK. Will the UK permit advanced DNA testing to identify her?

dnasolves.com

Unfortunately, this is a different kind of story. There is no ending and the “Angel of the Meadow” remains unidentified, not because of scientific limitation but because the UK is still working to develop a position on genealogical search for law enforcement investigations . Much like in the United States, there are so many unidentified victims in the UK and much like in the United States, these unidentified persons will often not be identified using traditional forensic testing alone. The UK allows “familial search”, but these comparisons are based on STRs. They utilize very few markers and can generally only detect an exact match, parent-child relationship, or sibling relationship. Investigators compared 400 missing persons without a match and this is a time-consuming and costly venture. I can only hope that in the future, there will be a chance to deploy modern DNA testing to help identify this woman and connect her back to family. In the meantime, we teamed up with online advocate Al Ka and the Othram team helped fund a proper headstone for this unknown woman. The headstone was completed just recently, this year.

Last year, there was a legal breakthrough in the Netherlands and for the first time, the courts allowed the use of external DNA databases in two pilot cases. The prosecutor built his case around the fact that they had exhausted all other options and genetic genealogy would be their last resort. They now have good hopes that those two pilot cases will only be the start of a new approach.

IMO, after ruling out 400 women (!), British LE might try a similar approach and seek the courts' permission on the basis of legislation that already exists.

Legal Breakthrough: Dutch Court approves use of private DNA databases

 

[Al Ka]

25th January was 14 years since she was found.

 

[EuropeanSearcher]

I guess they checked this out already..but I keep on thinking about this missing person from The Netherlands, Riek Degeling, although the stats are kind of troubling. She is added not that long ago. Unfortunately I couldn't find a picture of her smiling. Riek Degeling

She look iscredibly similar to Neustadt Jane Doe

 

[cokeysmurf]

Before I read any of the comments on this thread, I immediately though this lady looks Irish (I'm Irish myself).

Here is a link to the Gardai (Irish police) missing person's page. LINK

Unfortunately, the missing person's page does not have a whole lot from the 1970s/1980s. There is one persson, Ellen Coss who I think resembles our lady - Ellen Coss (nee Brown) but Ellen's age and time she went missing do not appear to match with our lady.

Ellen Coss:-

 

[Oriana]

25th January was 14 years since she was found.

How likely is it that a suspect (IMO) could be within a one mile radius of 3 unsolved killings?

 

[dotr]

Before I read any of the comments on this thread, I immediately though this lady looks Irish (I'm Irish myself).

Here is a link to the Gardai (Irish police) missing person's page. LINK

Unfortunately, the missing person's page does not have a whole lot from the 1970s/1980s. There is one persson, Ellen Coss who I think resembles our lady - Ellen Coss (nee Brown) but Ellen's age and time she went missing do not appear to match with our lady.

Ellen Coss:-

Started a thread for Ellen..

D

UK Thread 'UK- Ellen Coss (nee Brown),51, of Dublin, missing after visiting sister in UK, last seen boarding train in Manchester enroute to Holyhead, 3/11/99'

Sep 18, 2024

​

​

Ellen Coss (nee Brown)

Greater Manchester Police have requested the assistance of the Gardai in trying to establish the whereabouts of Ellen Cross.

www.garda.ie

Name: Ellen Coss (nee Brown)
Date Missing: 03/11/1999
Gender: Female
Height: 5'3" - 1.60 cm
Build: Light build
Hair Colour: Long brown hair - going grey
Further Information:
Greater Manchester Police have requested the assistance of the Gardai in trying to establish the whereabouts of Ellen Coss (nee Brown) who has been missing since Wednesday 3rd November 1999. When last seen she was boarding a train at Manchester to take...

• dotr

• 

 

[Lyanna]

Has anyone found anything on this "Guinness Measuring Chart" yet?

I'm not finding anything which gives a better idea as to what it is exactly.
The image of it does look like the typeface used by the brewery but I've no idea what it's supposed to 'measure'?
A pint of Guinness is a PINT.
In any pub the only measure necessary would be the glass it was served in.

The 'Guinness Book of Records' does have definitive measurements & I'm quite sure it started out as a kind of promo. so it is connected to the drink & would use similar typefaces I guess?

But even so, unfortunately, Guinness 'giveaways' have long been renowned for being found in almost every pub in the U.K. every St. Paddy's Day even as far back as the 70's (thou I'm not totally sure about that)

Isn't it to do with the 2 pour method? If they fill the pint too quick the "head" of the pint is too big, so they stop allow the Guinness to settle and then pour again? Some bartenders will literally measure the "head" to get the perfect pint so would guess that Guinness came up with something for bartenders to use ? moo

IANAE and could be completely wrong! Apologies if this has been answered, am new to this thread

 

[SimsGuy67]

Before I read any of the comments on this thread, I immediately though this lady looks Irish (I'm Irish myself).

Here is a link to the Gardai (Irish police) missing person's page. LINK

Unfortunately, the missing person's page does not have a whole lot from the 1970s/1980s. There is one persson, Ellen Coss who I think resembles our lady - Ellen Coss (nee Brown) but Ellen's age and time she went missing do not appear to match with our lady.

Ellen Coss:-

I had the same idea when I suggested Christina Bracken a few months ago (Never submitted it, though). It's half a gut feeling, but I feel this Doe will turn out to be an Irish woman.

 

[Oriana]

I am not sure about correct English term, but for me stockings are those sexy ones covering only up to the tigh of the leg. But to be clear, Angel when still alive, was wearing tights (not stockings).

When found, she wore only blue 'skinny-rib' jumper and blue bra. Tights and dress were found near her.

View attachment 206974

This is remnants of bra found still on her. I can't unscramble what is the part next to it on the left. If it is remnants of the remaining bra/corset or jumper or ripped part of pinafore dress.

I have flipped original image so anyone can double check from different angle what that 2nd part of clothing could be.

View attachment 206975

It's the back strap I think

 

[Bit of hope]

She look iscredibly similar to Neustadt Jane Doe

OT Neustadt Jane Doe had blue eyes, Riek Degeling has brown eyes.

About Angel of the meadow:

Angel of the Meadow

In 2010, skeletal remains of a murdered (and likely assaulted) woman were found in Manchester, UK. Will the UK permit advanced DNA testing to identify her?

dnasolves.com

There is no ending and the “Angel of the Meadow” remains unidentified, not because of scientific limitation but because the UK is still working to develop a position on genealogical search for law enforcement investigations . Much like in the United States, there are so many unidentified victims in the UK and much like in the United States, these unidentified persons will often not be identified using traditional forensic testing alone. The UK allows “familial search”, but these comparisons are based on STRs. They utilize very few markers and can generally only detect an exact match, parent-child relationship, or sibling relationship. Investigators compared 400 missing persons without a match and this is a time-consuming and costly venture. I can only hope that in the future, there will be a chance to deploy modern DNA testing to help identify this woman and connect her back to family.

@Al Ka and others: is there any progress/news about the status quo on genealogical searches in the UK?

 

[fidgeypie]

Should we be making use of genetic genealogy to assist in solving crime? A report on the feasibility of such methods in the UK (accessible version)

www.gov.uk

 

[MarziPanda]

I've had a brief look through that report before, but the one thing that annoys me is the statement that a proportion of the potential relatives will not be UK based and this could add significantly to the genealogical effort and cost

Like... yes, many people on DNA websites are American. But I'm British, my DNA is on GEDmatch, and the relatives I have on GEDmatch are close enough to probably identify me (if I weren't an NPE, and the majority of matches are paternal so that is an issue, but that's another story). Plus, if they're a close match, they're a close match. It doesn't matter if that second cousin is in America or Australia or anywhere else, a second cousin is a second cousin and they will help build the picture.

Although I did have another thought that they mean the people they are trying to identify might not be British, in which case all of the relatives may be abroad - Eastern Europe, Africa, Middle East etc. Which may indeed make costs spiral. I can see their point on that one. But I think that even having a baseline genealogy wise (such as knowing an unknown person is from a certain country) can lead to other investigative avenues.

There were previous theories in this thread (pages 6 and 7) that this Doe may have been partly Indian/Middle Eastern or from a white African family, and now speculation of her being Irish. If genealogy can properly pin down where she came from, even if that's just 'yes she was probably British', that can narrow the scope. I feel like this case would be a good one to start with, like a pilot study - Othram is already interested and may even cover some of the costs.