Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[Taskforce88]

Margaret clearly stood out for these teachers for them to remember after 20 years.

 

[Legally Bland]

From today (I think). A neighbour and ex-neighbour testified, neither knew or had seen Margaret.

A friend of EC:

Mr Paterson told the court he went to see Mr Cairney at a flat in Port Glasgow.

Mr Cairney had moved there after police launched a missing persons investigation to trace Margaret on 28 October, 2016.

The court heard that the pair had bonded in the 1980's over an interest in weightlifting, swimming and scuba diving.

Referring to flat visit, Mr Paterson said: "Basically he told me that he had been out for a walk with Margaret. Probably that was the first time I'd heard that name. He said on the way back there was a police presence at the bungalow and Margaret ran away. "

Mr McSporran asked: "Did he say how long Margaret had been with him?

Mr Paterson replied: "No. To be perfectly honest I wasn't interested. When anyone disappears where I come from they usually end up in the river."

Mr Paterson said he asked Mr Cairney if Margaret disappearing was a regular occurrence and added: "He said it was every two or three weeks. I asked why did she come back and he replied 'money'."

The witness told the jury that Mr Cairney also claimed that he and Ms Jones had travelled to the Millennium Dome in London in 2000 looking for Margaret.

Mr Paterson said that Mr Cairney said Margaret had wanted to visit the attraction and had run off when told she could not go there.

He added: "He said they visited the Dome in shifts and she never turned up.

"After that they were sitting in a cafe in Greenock, I think it was Tesco's, and Margaret walked in."

A GP testified he saw Margaret in October 1999 and referred her Renfrewshire and Inverclyde Community Learning Disability team, as he believed she needed support from social services.

A doctor from the unit interviewed Margaret, EC an AJ before xmas 1999, a follow up appointment was scheduled but cancelled by AJ.

Sorry for the paraphrasing, trying not to copy too much and can't find any other MSM sources.

Neighbour thought murder accused live alone

 

[Taskforce88]

AJ was posting appeals for missing people on her Facebook up until just a few months before Margaret went 'missing'.

I wonder how the GP remembers that far back? Are the witnesses using records on file?

 

[Legally Bland]

The DWP employee said she had called at the house to try to discover why Margaret had not gone for a medical.

She said: "Miss Jones said that every time Miss Fleming got word about a medical she would say she would go, but on the day she would throw a strop and would just point-blank refuse to go."

Mr McSporran asked: "Where was Margaret that day?" She replied: "I have no idea. I asked to see her because I started to get uncomfortable about some of the answers I was getting. It was instinct.

"She said I couldn't see Miss Fleming because she was ill and she wouldn't come out."

The witness also described the living conditions in the house as "awful".

[...]

Nurse Jacqueline Kennedy, who assesses benefits patients, told the court she visited the house on 13 July, 2016 to assess Ms Jones, who had applied for disability benefits.

Mr McSporran said: "Who did she say lived in the house with her," and Mrs Kennedy replied: "She said she lived there with her partner."

The prosecutor then asked: "Was there any mention of anyone else living there or a frequent visitor?" The witness replied: "No."

Mr McSporran then said: "Would you be surprised to learn she was in receipt of carer's allowance for another person," and she replied: "Yes, I would have been."

Earlier, postman Brian English, who delivered mail to the house from 2012 to 2106, said he only ever saw letters addressed to Mr Cairney or Ms Jones.

Missing woman concerns 'raised in 2012'

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thanks for keeping us up to date, LB!

 

[Legally Bland]

Veronica Bennett, who works for Inverclyde Council, said she made the call after speaking to Avril Jones, who is accused of murdering Ms Fleming.

Ms Bennett told the High Court in Glasgow that concerns had been flagged up to the social work department after Jones submitted a disability benefits claim on behalf of Ms Fleming dated September 30, 2016.

In this Jones claimed Ms Fleming was banned from the kitchen of the house because she would eat from a dog bowl and that she had self-harmed.

The social worker said she offered help to Jones and added: "I explained we have a duty of care. I could sense she was becoming uneasy."

Ms Bennett added: "I think she said she didn't want any support and they were actually managing.

"Avril also said that Margaret had picked a hole in her head and she hadn't taken her to the doctor."

The social worker said she felt Ms Fleming should be given urgent medical attention.

Police told missing woman 'was eating from dog bowl'


Miss Bennett added: “I think she said she didn't want any support and they were actually managing. Avril also said that Margaret had picked a hole in her head and she hadn't taken her to the doctor.”

The social worker said she felt an urgent visit should be made to Seacroft with a doctor. However the doctors at the Port Glasgow practice where Margaret was registered refused to come as the address was outside their practice area and the doctors at the Weymss Bay practice also would not come out because she was not a patient.

Prosecutor Iain McSporran QC asked Miss Bennett what she did and she replied: “I called the police.”

Defence QC Ian Duguid asked Miss Bennett: "Did Avril Jones say this had all happened a long time ago," and she replied: "No."

Murder trial hears Margaret Fleming was eating from a dog bowl and self-harming

 

[Legally Bland]

I guess after 15 years or so without check ups from social services etc. meant AJ and EC thought nobody would check up on Margaret, even though AJ described her picking hole in her head and it being untreated.

I'm a bit uneasy that doctors refused to accompany the social worker.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Catherine Phillips, 80, was giving evidence at the trial of Mr Cairney 77, and Ms Jones, 58.

Ms Phillips was asked by prosecutor Iain McSporran QC who lived in the house with Mr Cairney and Ms Jones.

The mother-of-four replied: "I thought it was just the two of them. I never saw anyone else."

The High Court in Glasgow heard that Mrs Phillips and the accused shared a driveway and she could see them coming and going. She could also see through the fence at the back into their garden.

Mr McSporran asked if she had any recollection of a young woman being about the house in the late 1990s and coming and going up until 2016.

The witness responded: "I have no recollection of that at all."

Iain Duguid QC, representing Ms Jones, asked Ms Phillips representing Jones: "Could you see people coming and going from their house?"

She said: "Yes, but there were very few visitors."
Neighbour thought murder accused live alone


Catherine Philips, 80, was giving evidence at the trial of Cairney 77, and Jones, 58, who deny murdering Margaret Fleming at the home they shared at Seacroft, Inverkip, Renfrewshire, between December 1999 and January 2000.
She was asked by prosecutor Iain McSporran QC who lived in the house with Cairney and Jones and mother-of-four Catherine replied: “I thought it was just the two of them. I never saw anyone else.”
Neighbour in Margaret Fleming case says no one else lived at home of accused

Margaret Fleming trial - BBC News

 

[bluebird69]

This concerns me too. Normally if you are on holiday you can see a gp as an emergency when obviously you are not registered to their practice. Perhaps it was the home visit that caused the problem

 

[jessie]

I guess after 15 years or so without check ups from social services etc. meant AJ and EC thought nobody would check up on Margaret, even though AJ described her picking hole in her head and it being untreated.

I'm a bit uneasy that doctors refused to accompany the social worker.

This seems like a dreadful lack of care from the local GPs.
Thank goodness for Miss Bennett's intervention.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I'm a bit uneasy that doctors refused to accompany the social worker.

Well there's a law that needs to be enacted...

 

[CoverMeCagney]

This seems like a dreadful lack of care from the local GPs.
Thank goodness for Miss Bennett's intervention.

So was it Miss Bennett's phone call to police that got the ball rolling?

 

[jessie]

Probably repeating previous links, but Yes Cags it seems Ms Bennett reported it to the police' thank goodness someone finally did.


The court later heard a social worker phoned the police after being told that Margaret was eating from a dog bowl and self-harming.

Veronica Bennett, who works for Inverclyde Council said she made the call after speaking to murder accused Ms Jones on the phone on October 28, 2016.

Miss Bennett said concerns had been flagged up to the social work department after Ms Jones submitted a disability benefits claim on behalf of Margaret dated 30 September, 2016.

'Duty of care'
In the claim Ms Jones stated Margaret was banned from the kitchen of the house because she would eat from a dog bowl and that she had picked a hole in her head and self-harmed.

The social worker said she offered help to Jones and added: "I explained we have a duty of care. I could sense she was becoming uneasy.

"I think she said she didn't want any support and they were actually managing. Avril also said that Margaret had picked a hole in her head and she hadn't taken her to the doctor."

The social worker said she felt an urgent visit should be made to Seacroft with a doctor.

But the court heard the doctors at the Port Glasgow practice, where Margaret was registered, refused to come as the address was outside their practice area.

Dog bowl
Doctors at the Weymss Bay practice would also not come out because she was not a patient.

Mr McSporran asked Ms Bennett what she did. She replied: "I called the police."

 

[Satchie]

This seems like a dreadful lack of care from the local GPs.
Thank goodness for Miss Bennett's intervention.

I don't live in Scotland, but here GP's are very reluctant to do home visits, period. That's what nurses and social workers are for. There are very few situations where a sick person can't be taken to a doctor, and those cases probably warrant an ambulance to hospital.

Many people would love to have a GP come to their home like in the old days, but I don't think it's a good use of resources. GP's are highly trained to diagnose and treat illnesses, not to do welfare checks. It would certainly have been a big waste of a GP's time in this case.

 

[bluebird69]

Coincidentally I had appointment at my gp last week and she was off out on home visits after seeing me. This is in Scotland but I suppose depends on the local health board

 

[Laughing]

In the US, police might have been accompanied by an ambulance crew/EMS Emergency Medical Services team.

Plenty of ability there to assess health.

Thank you, Ms. Bennett, for protecting the vulnerable citizens in your caseload!

 

[Satchie]

Thanks, there was a new witness mentioned there that I either missed or they updated the article after I read it.
_____________

The court later heard Ms Jones apparently told a friend she knew where Margaret was and gave police a six-hour window to find her.

But Alison Nugent said Ms Jones told her detectives did not follow up the lead.

Ms Nugent, 54, of Inverkip, met with Ms Jones after the missing person inquiry was launched in October 2016.

Mr McSporran asked her what Jones had told her about this.

Ms Nugent said: "She said they knew where she was and had told the police where to contact her in a certain time frame, but police chose not to.

"There would be a six-hour window, but police didn't follow up on it."

Ms Nugent was asked who "they" were. She replied: "Her and Eddie."

Mr McSporran asked her if Ms Jones said where Margaret was.

The witness replied: "She said she was with travellers and they would keep her safe and protect her."

Ms Nugent said that she was told by Ms Jones that Margaret would return from time to time to collect her benefit money. She added: "She said Margaret had more than enough money to look after herself."

Missing woman was 'with friends'

All these witness 'friends' seem to have swallowed these crazy stories hook, line and sinker. I'm surprised no one twigged to this highly suspicious circumstances until finally a social worker was confronted with an application for yet more benefits for Margaret (who was supposedly off travelling, and yet somehow simultaneously at home eating out of a dogbowl?) By 2016, AJ clearly believed she could lie her way through anything, and no wonder, she'd been successfully doing it for over 15 years.

This case reminds me of 'Chronicle of a Death Foretold', based on a true story from Colombia of how villagers knew a murder was going to happen, yet no one was willing to intervene to put a stop to it, they all took a passive, 'none of my business' stance.

 

[Ironside]

All these witness 'friends' seem to have swallowed these crazy stories hook, line and sinker. I'm surprised no one twigged to this highly suspicious circumstances until finally a social worker was confronted with an application for yet more benefits for Margaret.

In fairness the witnesses only testified about what nonsense EC and AJ said in 2016 when the search for Margaret started, it isn't the case that they knew or even believed Margaret was "living" with the carers all along. They couldn't have twigged as they had no idea Margaret even existed.

 

[Legally Bland]

I've been rewatching the BBC interview EC and AJ did. It's obviously all lies, but fairly consistent with what they've told neighbours and friends.

Looking at the state of Eddie, I can't believe they have the cheek to question Margaret's hygiene. His fingernails, a bit of detritus hanging off the hair on his sideburns, and the hairs and scum on the top of his t-shirt. Crumpled old newspapers behind his head.

And the silence is deafening when asked what they would say to Margaret.

I'd also forgotten that they were accusing Margaret of being involved with drugs.

It 's well worth another look.

Missing woman still alive, claim carers

If you can't get iPlayer, hopefully this should work:

As far as the trial goes, it's scene setting so far. No evidence of murder, but I really hope it's still to come.

I don't have a clue what Police Scotland may have, but I don't believe this would have come to trial without some sort evidence indicating murder.

 

[bluebird69]

There must be a ton of evidence if the trial is to last 6/8 weeks. Has anyone seen any early pics of Eddie? I also wonder what caused him to be so friendly with poor margaret's dad