Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[Antonia]

If the trial goes wrong, the very most they will be found guilty with is fraud.

It might be a silly question, but is there any real possibility of it going that badly wrong?

 

[Taskforce88]

It might be a silly question, but is there any real possibility of it going that badly wrong?

There is a chance of a 'not proven' verdict which means that the jury suspects guilt but not enough evidence of murder has been presented, therefore they walk free.

 

[Antonia]

There is a chance of a 'not proven' verdict which means that the jury suspects guilt but not enough evidence of murder has been presented, therefore they walk free.

Yes, especially as there is no body. It would be a devastating outcome.
(It was much better when we had a 'thanks' button, instead of 'like'!)

 

[Legally Bland]

I have watched some of the (brief) coverage on BBC's 'Reporting Scotland'. The trial was the second item on today's evening episode, showing footage of some of the witnesses outside court.

BBC iPlayer - Reporting Scotland

Thanks, there was a new witness mentioned there that I either missed or they updated the article after I read it.
_____________

The court later heard Ms Jones apparently told a friend she knew where Margaret was and gave police a six-hour window to find her.

But Alison Nugent said Ms Jones told her detectives did not follow up the lead.

Ms Nugent, 54, of Inverkip, met with Ms Jones after the missing person inquiry was launched in October 2016.

Mr McSporran asked her what Jones had told her about this.

Ms Nugent said: "She said they knew where she was and had told the police where to contact her in a certain time frame, but police chose not to.

"There would be a six-hour window, but police didn't follow up on it."

Ms Nugent was asked who "they" were. She replied: "Her and Eddie."

Mr McSporran asked her if Ms Jones said where Margaret was.

The witness replied: "She said she was with travellers and they would keep her safe and protect her."

Ms Nugent said that she was told by Ms Jones that Margaret would return from time to time to collect her benefit money. She added: "She said Margaret had more than enough money to look after herself."

Missing woman was 'with friends'

 

[jessie]

In case anyone is wondering "lifting money" means going to an ATM and withdrawing money.

So supposedly.... it was easier for Margaret to make a special visit to Avril and Eddie to pick up her money than to keep her own ATM card and use it whenever and wherever she was ?
I imagine the police will know exactly how often the card was used to withdraw Margaret's money.

 

[Ironside]

So supposedly.... it was easier for Margaret to make a special visit to Avril and Eddie to pick up her money than to keep her own ATM card and use it whenever and wherever she was ?
I imagine the police will know exactly how often the card was used to withdraw Margaret's money.

If she was a gangmaster why would she even need to come back for money? Their story makes no sense.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

What a pair of fibbing fibbers who fib. I really hope there isn’t a ‘not proven’ verdict but I’m worried....

 

[Ironside]

What a pair of fibbing fibbers who fib. I really hope there isn’t a ‘not proven’ verdict but I’m worried....

I think at the very least they'll get done for fraud. We will have to wait and see what evidence there is to show Margaret was murdered.

 

[Legally Bland]

Alleged murder victim Margaret Fleming was highly unlikely to have written three letters attributed to her, a former teacher told a court today.

The letters were typewritten and dated shortly after Margaret is alleged to have been killed in the house she shared with carers Edward Cairney and Avril Jones.

Jacqueline Cahill, 55, who taught Margaret at Port Glasgow High School for two years told the High Court in Glasgow that they were 'too sophisticated."

The English teacher said of Margaret: “She was of low ability.”

[...]

Yesterday, Mrs Cahill said that police showed her three letters addressed to Cairney and Jones, signed by Margaret and dated between January 9 and 13, 2000. The first from Carlisle and the other two from Regent Palace Hotel in London.

Prosecutor Iain McSporran QC asked Mrs Cahill: “What was Margaret's level of writing,” and she replied: “She could write unaided or with support around about 100 words. There would be a number of errors in it, but you could get from it what she meant.”

Mrs Cahill said that in her opinion her letters were 'too sophisticated” and had a number of words spelt correctly which she would have expected to be wrongly spelt by someone of Margaret's ability. These words included probably, really and museum.

Letters 'too sophisticated' for murder victim to have written

 

[Legally Bland]

Mr McSporran asked: "Could Margaret have produced these letters?"

She replied: "I think it is highly unlikely. She would have needed a lot of support to put pen to paper."

Defence QC Thomas Ross, representing Cairney, observed the witness did not have any schoolwork to compare with the letters.

He then asked the witness if she ever suggested Margaret should have been taken out of mainstream school.

Mrs Cahill replied: "No, but she did require support with her literacy."

Iain Duguid QC, representing Ms Jones, asked Mrs Cahill if the letters could have been written for Margaret and she just signed them.

She replied: "My personal feeling is that the Margaret I knew would not have produced these letters.

"There is no punctuation. Margaret knew how to punctuate.

"The letters have quite a sophisticated stream of consciousness and use of imagery."

The jury was shown the letters which, were in the main rambling and confusing, and with no punctuation.

In one letter, sent from the London hotel, the author speaks of "going to Scotland to the mountains and hills to make up my mind if I am a traveller or a mouse."

In her evidence Mrs Cahill described Margaret as "very quiet, very shy and very compliant".

Mr Duguid asked: "Did you know social workers assessed Margaret as aggressive towards her mother and attention seeking," and Mrs Cahill replied: "At school she was quiet and compliant."

Missing woman 'did not write letters'

 

[Taskforce88]

Interesting that a school teacher remembers all that from 20 years or more ago. I wonder if the school has any written reports regarding Margaret, and that is maybe what they are using?

 

[Ironside]

I've always wondered how the police had a very specific date range for when Margaret was killed, I suppose these letters must be what the date is based on?

I wonder did Avril and Eddie produce the letters instantly or if they were found by police in the hoard?

 

[Ironside]

Another thought, if MF ran away with travellers why on earth would she be staying in a hotel in central London? Travellers tend to stay in caravans last time I checked.

 

[Al Ka]

A teacher of missing woman Margaret Fleming told a jury her former pupil wanted to be invisible at school and tried desperately hard not to be noticed.

The claim was made by Elizabeth Brown who taught Margaret at Port Glasgow High school.

The now retired 78-year-old was at the time a principal teacher for learning support.

When asked about Margaret at school, the witness said: "She portrayed as wanting to be invisible. She did anything she could not to draw attention to herself. Margaret never went outside voluntarily to the playground. If she felt ill at ease, she came looking for us."
---
Jurors today also heard evidence from Jacqueline Cahill, who taught Margaret for two years at Port Glasgow high. The English teacher described Margaret as "very quiet and shy
---
Another teacher, Elaine Moore who worked closely with a young Margaret also gave evidence.

The 68-year-old described her former pupil as " a very needy girl" and " extremely lacking in self confidence".

Mrs Moore said it was only her and her dad and I think they relied heavily on each other. She said: "Margaret's world was her dad."

The court has heard Margaret's father died in 1995.
---
Cairney, 77, and Jones, 58, deny murdering Margaret by means unknown at the home they shared at Seacroft in Inverkip between December 18, 1999 and January 5, 2000.

They also deny claiming £182,000 in benefits fraud by pretending for 17 years from December 1999 to October 2016 she was alive.

Teacher of missing woman said she wanted to be 'invisible'

 

[Legally Bland]

I've always wondered how the police had a very specific date range for when Margaret was killed, I suppose these letters must be what the date is based on?

I wonder did Avril and Eddie produce the letters instantly or if they were found by police in the hoard?

None of this is really ringing true. A letter with no punctuation but perfect spelling? I wonder if there are envelopes with postmarks on them or just dated letters.

The hotel in London seems strange, and I don't understand the 'police had a six hour window to contact Margaret' nonsense.

A teacher of missing woman Margaret Fleming told a jury her former pupil wanted to be invisible at school and tried desperately hard not to be noticed.

The claim was made by Elizabeth Brown who taught Margaret at Port Glasgow High school.

The now retired 78-year-old was at the time a principal teacher for learning support.

When asked about Margaret at school, the witness said: "She portrayed as wanting to be invisible. She did anything she could not to draw attention to herself. Margaret never went outside voluntarily to the playground. If she felt ill at ease, she came looking for us."
---
Jurors today also heard evidence from Jacqueline Cahill, who taught Margaret for two years at Port Glasgow high. The English teacher described Margaret as "very quiet and shy
---
Another teacher, Elaine Moore who worked closely with a young Margaret also gave evidence.

The 68-year-old described her former pupil as " a very needy girl" and " extremely lacking in self confidence".

Mrs Moore said it was only her and her dad and I think they relied heavily on each other. She said: "Margaret's world was her dad."

The court has heard Margaret's father died in 1995.
---
Cairney, 77, and Jones, 58, deny murdering Margaret by means unknown at the home they shared at Seacroft in Inverkip between December 18, 1999 and January 5, 2000.

They also deny claiming £182,000 in benefits fraud by pretending for 17 years from December 1999 to October 2016 she was alive.

Teacher of missing woman said she wanted to be 'invisible'

This is so sad, people taking advantage of someone so vulnerable entrusted to their care. I think Margaret's life would have turned out so differently if her father hadn't unfortunately passed.

 

[Ironside]

The six hour window nonsense is from the day police turned up at Inverkip looking for Margaret. The carers claim when Margaret ran off they told the police exactly where she'd be for the next six hours but police didn't follow it up.

Funny how the carers knew her exact location and timings given that she'd allegedly barely been living with them over the years.

 

[Taskforce88]

n/a

 

[jessie]

When asked about Margaret at school, the witness said: "She portrayed as wanting to be invisible. She did anything she could not to draw attention to herself. Margaret never went outside voluntarily to the playground. If she felt ill at ease, she came looking for us."

Reading this I'm somehow relieved that Margaret had understanding teachers. I'm almost able to imagine the type of girl she was then, although her mother's statement is quite at odds with this.
I'm finding it all so sad, poor Margaret, what an awful life she seemed to have endured.
Was there noone she could have contacted, spoken to, helped her?

Good grief, the abuse she allegedly suffered at the hands of this pair.

 

[Antonia]

When asked about Margaret at school, the witness said: "She portrayed as wanting to be invisible. She did anything she could not to draw attention to herself. Margaret never went outside voluntarily to the playground. If she felt ill at ease, she came looking for us."

Reading this I'm somehow relieved that Margaret had understanding teachers. I'm almost able to imagine the type of girl she was then, although her mother's statement is quite at odds with this.
I'm finding it all so sad, poor Margaret, what an awful life she seemed to have endured.
Was there noone she could have contacted, spoken to, helped her?

Good grief, the abuse she allegedly suffered at the hands of this pair.

I agree it seems a bit contradictory that Margaret was, reportedly, quiet at school but aggressive towards her mother, but children/teenagers often seem to behave very differently when at home/with family compared to when at school.

 

[jessie]

I agree it seems a bit contradictory that Margaret was, reportedly, quiet at school but aggressive towards her mother, but children/teenagers often seem to behave very differently when at home/with family compared to when at school.

But with your own child one (if a decent understanding parent, and I know that's difficult) does try. I get the impression, and admit I may be wrong, that it was Margaret's home life that caused the aggression.
Why I don't know. I can only perceive what I hear from the trial.