Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[jessie]

If she had a life-long disability that did not require medication, would she require check-ups from either the GP or DWP?

I was thinking more of general health problems. We can't avoid them and sometimes they need treatment - bugs, infections etc.

What about eye tests, dentists ?

 

[Ironside]

Idk, but you should. My GP practice, if you don't see a doctor in a number of years, and not requiring medication, I can't quite remember if its 5? But they remove you from their ..idk the right word, services?

I think it's five years. They attempt to contact you then strike you off their list if they can't verify you still want to be registered with them. GP practices are run like businesses and are paid a certain amount for having x amount of patients on their books.

The question is did Margaret see a doctor regularly before 1999? If she had ongoing ailments and was a "frequent flyer" in the gp's lounge and then stopped attending that would ring alarm bells.

 

[skibaboo]

I think it's five years. They attempt to contact you then strike you off their list if they can't verify you still want to be registered with them. GP practices are run like businesses and are paid a certain amount for having x amount of patients on their books.

The question is did Margaret see a doctor regularly before 1999? If she had ongoing ailments and was a "frequent flyer" in the gp's lounge and then stopped attending that would ring alarm bells.

Today, it has been reported that she has not visited her GP for 17 years, despite being registered at her local practice and visiting the medical centre regularly before that time.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4047240/Margaret-Fleming-not-visited-doctor-17-years.html#ixzz4THgplBr9

If the medical practice and the GP practice are one and the same, then it seems so. That should have pulled up a flag.

 

[Deleted member 178385]

Today, it has been reported that she has not visited her GP for 17 years, despite being registered at her local practice and visiting the medical centre regularly before that time.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ot-visited-doctor-17-years.html#ixzz4THgplBr9

If the medical practice and the GP practice are one and the same, then it seems so. That should have pulled up a flag.

BBM. Any idea where it was reported first (i.e. where Daily Fail are getting their info from)?

ETA: Might be this.

 

[Deleted member 178385]

I think it's five years. They attempt to contact you then strike you off their list if they can't verify you still want to be registered with them. GP practices are run like businesses and are paid a certain amount for having x amount of patients on their books.

The question is did Margaret see a doctor regularly before 1999? If she had ongoing ailments and was a "frequent flyer" in the gp's lounge and then stopped attending that would ring alarm bells.

Yes, that would certainly ring alarm bells!

In terms of the five year thing (I'm not sure that it's 5 years in Scottish NHS though) - as far as I know, they will just send you a letter to check you still live in the area. All you would need to do is reply to the letter or possibly phone them to confirm you are still there - the carers could maybe have done that on her behalf.

 

[eneri12]

Cops now extending the search for Margaret to the Isle of Bute

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/cops-say-missing-margaret-fleming-9487415

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[Weaslesleuth]

So they know (or assume?) she received benefits but have made a guess as to which ones, it seems. When info in an article begins "A source said...", a big pinch of salt is required IMO! The red tops do love anything benefit-related, after all.

From the bottom of the article:

"The Department for Work and Pensions refused to give details about any benefits paid to anyone at the house.

A spokeswoman said: “As this is a police matter, we are unable to provide a comment. All queries should be directed to Police Scotland.”

Police declined to comment on the DWP’s involvement."

Leading on from this - as someone who works in Local Government in Scotland - Housing Benefit can only be paid to tenants, it is not awarded to homeowners and as per below link the Daily Mail state that the carers own the home:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4047240/Margaret-Fleming-not-visited-doctor-17-years.html

So if Housing Benefit was paid, then they would need to have had Margaret living there as a tenant and renting a room from them.

Housing and Council Tax Benefit rely heavily on information from DWP so I can understand why it may not have been picked up from that side - that is, if there even was claims for any HB, CTB or any reductions on the Council Tax based on the household make-up. They may not have even advised that Margaret had come to live with them and the above articles have made lots of assumptions.

I also noticed that the carers are said to have had control of her finances - if this was done officially and they had Power of Attorney then they would have been able to complete and sign any forms on her behalf. I know that in my job, we often do annual reviews by post and as long as a form is completed and returned then everything is fine, whether it is signed by the customer or their POA.

 

[Ironside]

Does anyone know how a disability travel card would work on the ferry? On the bus it's a sort of smart card thing which I believe does track journeys. Is it the same type of card on the ferry?

I'm wondering if police based her liking to go to bute on concession card records. Someone could have posed as Margaret and got cheap travel plus free travel for the person accompanying her.

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[Weaslesleuth]

Does anyone know how a disability travel card would work on the ferry? On the bus it's a sort of smart card thing which I believe does track journeys. Is it the same type of card on the ferry?

I'm wondering if police based her liking to go to bute on concession card records. Someone could have posed as Margaret and got cheap travel plus free travel for the person accompanying her.

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I'm unsure how it works and if the National Entitlement Card works for ferry travel - but I like your thinking!

The NEC cards do generally need to be updated on a yearly basis, although all it would take is for someone to complete and sign the forms in her name. As stated above, I work in Local Government, and don't generally tend to check customers signatures on every form they sign to see if it's the same as the previous form, although if the carers had been signing forms for her since 1999 when she moved in with them, every form on file would probably have the same signature.

 

[Ironside]

The NEC would entitle her to discounted fares on Calmac plus free travel for a person accompanying her.

I do wonder if it's tracked somehow for ferrys and that would explain the police comment about Bute.

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[ColourPurple]

The NEC would entitle her to discounted fares on Calmac plus free travel for a person accompanying her.

I do wonder if it's tracked somehow for ferrys and that would explain the police comment about Bute.

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It could just be that the carers have said to police "Oh yeah she was always out and about. She loved going to Bute"

I wish they would realise that if they are lying then police WILL find them out and they'll be in even more trouble for leading police on a wild goose chase.

 

[bloodyinspiring]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4047240/Margaret-Fleming-not-visited-doctor-17-years.html

Find this strange - the parents of one of the carers won so much money and did not think to share, and then the application for money in Margaret's name. No news yet on the excavation, also find it unusual that she had not visited her GP in 17 years and no one worried - were the carers working for the NHS, if not surely the GP would have wondered where she was as she visited regularly before she stopped going 17 years ago.
Also the issue of her private life, she never told the carers who she was meeting, and as someone with mental disabilities surely the carers were concerned as to what she was doing?

 

[Ironside]

Drones are now banned from flying anywhere near the property for a few months.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-38397383

 

[JerricaBenton]

I wonder if that means they have found something?

 

[Ironside]

I don't think something has been found given the length of the ban, I think the police don't want drones flying over constantly for privacy. If they do find something in the garden it wouldn't be very respectful for the victims corpse to be pictured in a paper and there is also police officers privacy to consider as well. I would feel uneasy if a drone was constantly hovering over me all day.

This is interesting, newspapers hire aerial drone photographers to get the pictures. So if you're being paid for anything aerial you must get permission to fly from the CAA. So the drone photographers won't be able to break the ban as they won't get permission in the first place to go up into that airspace.
http://shop.droneflight.co.uk/pages/summary-of-uk-legal-requirements

 

[calo44]

HI - I'm new to the thread but find this case very interesting! The police seem to believe there is something to be found Buried in the area, yet it doesn't appear as though they're searching any of the wooded areas near the property? A shallow grave might be worth looking for or even bone fragments scattered by animals (or the elements) not too far from the house.

Also, in the photos of the home in question, the body of water that it sits on doesn't show a pier to tie a boat up to. Although the male homeowner is known to be a deep sea aficionado, I doubt he would have taken the trouble to move a body via vehicle or other means, to wherever his boat is stored to then take said body out to sea to dispose of it. It seems logical to me that the body would be in that wooded area, not under Avril's prized garden. JMO

 

[calo44]

Oops - one added thought: if the government pays the careers a stipend to cover their expenses, do they also pay the disabled person (Margaret) a monthly stipend as well for being unable to work? Just wondering if they've inquired as to Margaret's personal bank records to perhaps see if there are any spending patterns that emerge that might suggest whether she really was into traveling off on her own as her carers proclaim? Maybe any credit card activity?

 

[JerricaBenton]

One newspaper reported that Margaret had bank cards but that the carers were in charge of them.

 

[Ironside]

Oops - one added thought: if the government pays the careers a stipend to cover their expenses, do they also pay the disabled person (Margaret) a monthly stipend as well for being unable to work? Just wondering if they've inquired as to Margaret's personal bank records to perhaps see if there are any spending patterns that emerge that might suggest whether she really was into traveling off on her own as her carers proclaim? Maybe any credit card activity?

Margaret would have received disability living allowance. I'm sure the police have already gone over her bank account and her carers bank accounts with a fine toothcomb.

Seems there are smart cards for concessionary travel but not everyone has them just yet. A smart card would have details of journeys on it so if Margaret had one and it was used recently it could contain some interesting details.
http://www.buteman.co.uk/news/transport/don-t-miss-the-bus-with-travel-card-renewal-1-4313016

As for the woods it seems they're concentrating all their efforts on the property for the moment but I'm sure they'd expand if they can't find anything as they seem determined to get to the bottom of this.

I wonder is there any direct access to the water at all from the garden or is there a little cliff or beach or something. If you had a small dinghy you might be able to sail right up to the garden.

 

[bloodyinspiring]

Does anyone know if they've searched the water yet? I find it unusual that they search the back garden before the woods or the water, as it's probably more likely for a body to be put here? If there is one to be found. I haven't seen any of this on tv, which I find strange as regular watch SYV news and they do usually report missing persons. Perhaps I just missed it, but there seems to be a sato factory amount of articles