GUILTY UK - Mikaeel Kular, 3, Edinburgh, Scotland, 15 Jan 2014 - #3

[Inge Jones]

I think that is normal on the first hearing. I believe a plea will be expected in the second pre-trial hearing. Don't forget she was already out of the first one before the charges were formalised, so until they were laid, and the solicitors have a chance to receive the details, they won't know what they're defending against and whether they have a chance of bothering with a not-guilty

 

[Lolacat]

I think that is normal on the first hearing. I believe a plea will be expected in the second pre-trial hearing. Don't forget she was already out of the first one before the charges were formalised, so until they were laid, and the solicitors have a chance to receive the details, they won't know what they're defending against and whether they have a chance of bothering with a not-guilty

Ah, thanks. That makes sense

 

[CoverMeCagney]

<modsnip>

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As for the "drugged pic", who hasn't had a "blink" photo taken? Would she really drug and take him out in public to McD's, and then take a photo and THEN put it on social media. I think not.

 

[velocitygirl]

<modsnip>i just wondered about the drug case that was coming up and the fact she was an alleged witness...there's so much randomness and evil in the world...i just can't think how she would murder one child out of 5? i'm struggling with it tbh.

 

[Inge Jones]

Well if that was the same event where they had the video of the girl messing about at a diner, then it was during his illness, and he may have had puffy eyes from some infection, or may have been on some normal medicine. We know no details whatsoever of what kept him off nursery. Selfish and neglectful mothers may occasionally drug a child to keep them asleep while they go out by themselves, but there would be no logic in drugging a child before taking them out with the other kids. And if they do drug them abusively why would they photograph them looking drugged? So I am not inclined to think the photograph shows a situation of drug abuse.

Mikaeel does appear to have a slight eye socket anomaly where his eye opening does not match the size of the eye socket. I have seen this in cases of hydrocephalus, or anything that causes the skull to expand. Operations for such problems may well explain the appearance of a scar on the neck that people have commented on in this thread. It would also explain why the twins were fostered seperately, as there are specially trained foster carers who specialise in children with medical needs.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

There may well turn out to be something sinister behind this family, but my gut feeling is that it's been a horrible accident - either she has lost her temper and killed him out of sheer frustration "a moment of madness", or he has been hit/pushed and fallen and died.

When will the PM results be out? The police were quick to announce a murder charge after finding his little body, which would suggest the cause of death was clear. I will be shocked if it was a shooting or stabbing so I'm expecting it to be strangulation or beating.

I also think theres a good chance he died quite a few days before it was reported, could even have been end December. All my own opinion, obvs.

 

[Alyce]

According to neighbours, Rosdeep, her five children, Pandeep and her one son all lived under the same roof at the house in Dunvegan Avenue which was the focus of yesterday&#8217;s investigations.

Rosdeep and her children only moved to their new home at Ferry Gait Crescent in Drylaw, Edinburgh, around 18 months ago.

The twins must have been put in foster care either just before the move or soon after.

Did the family alert social services after Rosedeep moved-did Rosedeep move away from her sister because her sister did not approve of her clubbing and drinking. I wonder if her sister offered to look after the twins.

From all the pics I have seen of the bungalow it looks rather small for a family of 2 adults and six small children. The move to Edinburgh must have given RK and her children more space as, from what I know ( map provided on earlier thread ) the Edinburgh flat was a 4 bedroom flat, spread over 2 floors.

With regard to the timeline of the twins in care - there are varying reports but as far as I can make out, the twins were in care for some 18 months, and were allowed to go back to live with RK in September 2013.
So that means they must have gone into care round about March 2012.

Perhaps it was proving too difficult with 5 very small children in the bungalow and played a part in the reason SS took the children into care.

Then, and again only if newspaper timelines are correct, we are told that RK had lived in Edinburgh for some 18 months. Meaning that she and her 3 older children must have moved to Edinburgh round about July 2012.
Perhaps part of the reason behind this was an attempt to provide a larger space for her family in the hope that this would allow her to be able to have the twins back home with her ?

I am thinking that she must have stayed on the radar with Social Services - either Fife or Edinburgh or both - because otherwise how would the twins have been returned to her last year ?

 

[Iplem]

When will the PM results be out? The police were quick to announce a murder charge after finding his little body, which would suggest the cause of death was clear. I will be shocked if it was a shooting or stabbing so I'm expecting it to be strangulation or beating. <snip>

PM could be taking longer because they're looking for old injuries and doing toxicology. Though of course he was only found on Saturday 18th and we don't know what their usual timescales are.

I don't think it'll be stabbing or shooting either.

ETA -

There may well turn out to be something sinister behind this family, but my gut feeling is that it's been a horrible accident - either she has lost her temper and killed him out of sheer frustration "a moment of madness", or he has been hit/pushed and fallen and died.

If it was a moment of madness/loss of temper, wouldn't a mother still want the best for their child afterwards? i.e - a decent burial not bunging him in the woods like a dead pet. I'm just pondering how likely that really is, I can't really see it myself. But then of course, we know nothing about what the mother's mental state has been, maybe she's been really ill.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

PM could be taking longer because they're looking for old injuries and doing toxicology. Though of course he was only found on Saturday 18th and we don't know what their usual timescales are.

I don't think it'll be stabbing or shooting either.

Heaven forbid. I think that would shock us all to the core....

 

[Inge Jones]

If it was a moment of madness/loss of temper, wouldn't a decent mother still want the best for their child afterwards? i.e - a decent burial not bunging him in the woods like a dead pet

No, not if it meant jail for this moment of madness, and having all four of her other children taken into care. From seeing how happy the children seemed in general, I would be willing to bet they'd have rather stayed with their mother than with one or more strangers, and most mothers will know this.

 

[Alyce]

There may well turn out to be something sinister behind this family, but my gut feeling is that it's been a horrible accident - either she has lost her temper and killed him out of sheer frustration "a moment of madness", or he has been hit/pushed and fallen and died.

When will the PM results be out? The police were quick to announce a murder charge after finding his little body, which would suggest the cause of death was clear. I will be shocked if it was a shooting or stabbing so I'm expecting it to be strangulation or beating.

I also think theres a good chance he died quite a few days before it was reported, could even have been end December. All my own opinion, obvs.

I agree about the horrible accident but I do think whatever happened only happened last week.
I don't see how she could have kept Mikaeel's disappearance from the other children for any length of time. Plus, if she did do that, then surely when she raised the alarm last Thursday, her older boys would have wondered what on earth was going on, knowing that Mikaeel had not been around for weeks.

The part I struggle with, and we may of course never know the full details, is how RK could have moved Mikaeel in such a short space of time ( if my belief about it only happening last week is correct ).

We know that RK took her youngest daughter to nursery on the Wednesday morning ( the 15th ) - nursery is 9 - 12 or 12.30 only..
No one has mentioned seeing Mikaeel in the car, so presumably he was left at home ( being as he either was ill or was meant to be ill as far as nursery is concerned ).

Then RK goes home, something happens and she has to move Mikaeel out of the flat.
She drives to Fife and leaves him behind the bungalow ( neighbour reports having seen RK outside the bungalow, in her car, either the Tues or Wed morning last week ).

RK then has to return to Edinburgh and collect her daughter from nursery by say 12 or 12.30 latest.

Now , assuming this was a terrible accident, I find it an extremely short time frame for all this to happen - 3 hours or less ( drive time to Fife is about 40 mins each way ).
I realise that it could be done in this space of time, but it seems as though there would be no time to think and take in the horror of what has happened, almost as though as soon as poor Mikaeel was dead, there was instant action to move him and get home for the nursery pick up.
I am probably not explaining this very well, but I would find it hard to understand how anyone, other than a hardened criminal ( which I am sure she is not ) could work under this time pressure.

 

[Iplem]

No, not if it meant jail for this moment of madness, and having all four of her other children taken into care. From seeing how happy the children seemed in general, I would be willing to bet they'd have rather stayed with their mother than with one or more strangers, and most mothers will know this.

Yeah, actually I think you're right, it does makes sense. It just seems like such madness though and such a big risk - making up a whole massive fairytale and seriously thinking you can fool the police, and so ruthless against the dead child too. But I guess people do mad, stupid things all the time.

 

[Inge Jones]

The part I struggle with, and we may of course never know the full details, is how RK could have moved Mikaeel in such a short space of time ( if my belief about it only happening last week is correct ).

[snipped]

RK then has to return to Edinburgh and collect her daughter from nursery by say 12 or 12.30 latest.
.

Hmm well the hurried time frame would be a very good explanation of why he might have been apparently "dumped" rather than buried - if indeed that is how he was found. I've seen a lot of talk about being dumped in a suitcase on this thread, but I am not aware if that has ever been part of the official information?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Yeah, actually I think you're right, it does makes sense. It just seems like such madness though and such a big risk - making up a whole massive fairytale and seriously thinking you can fool the police, and so ruthless against the dead child too. But I guess people do mad, stupid things all the time.

I think she's had time to think about it, whether hours or days. Her kids are only young and if she said "Mikaeel's at grandmas cos he's poorly" why would they not believe that.

One thing confusing me - I have definitely read that the twins were at nursery every afternoon, which throws confusion on her trip to Fife which was on a morning.

And we don't actually know for sure that he was even ill. A chest infection was the reason she gave to the nursery for his absence, but that could have been a cover up, the body could have been at aunts for longer than we think. That said, the police have appealed to locals for anyone that saw him between Mon & Weds which suggests thay have a safe sighting from the weekend, does it?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hmm well the hurried time frame would be a very good explanation of why he might have been apparently "dumped" rather than buried - if indeed that is how he was found. I've seen a lot of talk about being dumped in a suitcase on this thread, but I am not aware if that has ever been part of the official information?

And a suitcase with a body inside could easily be hidden from 4 other young children.

 

[Inge Jones]

And a suitcase with a body inside could easily be hidden from 4 other young children.

In the trunk, yeah.

 

[Iplem]

Heaven forbid. I think that would shock us all to the core....

It would be sad and depressing, but sadly it wouldn't shock me. We just have to hope that somehow he didn't suffer too much and that there's some justice in the end.

Hmm well the hurried time frame would be a very good explanation of why he might have been apparently "dumped" rather than buried - if indeed that is how he was found. I've seen a lot of talk about being dumped in a suitcase on this thread, but I am not aware if that has ever been part of the official information?

The suitcase has never been official. Apparently it was info leaked by a neighbour on the road of the bungalows. Goes without saying it could be nonsense from a fibbing gossip.

 

[Alyce]

I think she's had time to think about it, whether hours or days. Her kids are only young and if she said "Mikaeel's at grandmas cos he's poorly" why would they not believe that.

One thing confusing me - I have definitely read that the twins were at nursery every afternoon, which throws confusion on her trip to Fife which was on a morning.

And we don't actually know for sure that he was even ill. A chest infection was the reason she gave to the nursery for his absence, but that could have been a cover up, the body could have been at aunts for longer than we think. That said, the police have appealed to locals for anyone that saw him between Mon & Weds which suggests thay have a safe sighting from the weekend, does it?

That confused me too, but then I read the other day that the nursery slot was on Wednesday morning, which would fit with her being able to then go to Fife that morning ( or Tuesday morning, as neighbour could not be sure re Tues or Wed )

The appeal for info from Mon to Wed also says to me that they have definite proof up to the Sunday - that flipagram ( the friends daughter waving her arms around while Mikaeel is eating next to her ) is dated January 12.
I know the date is the date of upload and not date of pic, but could be in this instance they are the same, and the restaurant staff or other diners may have been able to provide definite proof that Mikaeel and family were there on Jan 12.

 

[NirvanaGirl]

I agree about the horrible accident but I do think whatever happened only happened last week.
I don't see how she could have kept Mikaeel's disappearance from the other children for any length of time. Plus, if she did do that, then surely when she raised the alarm last Thursday, her older boys would have wondered what on earth was going on, knowing that Mikaeel had not been around for weeks.

The part I struggle with, and we may of course never know the full details, is how RK could have moved Mikaeel in such a short space of time ( if my belief about it only happening last week is correct ).

We know that RK took her youngest daughter to nursery on the Wednesday morning ( the 15th ) - nursery is 9 - 12 or 12.30 only..
No one has mentioned seeing Mikaeel in the car, so presumably he was left at home ( being as he either was ill or was meant to be ill as far as nursery is concerned ).

Then RK goes home, something happens and she has to move Mikaeel out of the flat.
She drives to Fife and leaves him behind the bungalow ( neighbour reports having seen RK outside the bungalow, in her car, either the Tues or Wed morning last week ).

RK then has to return to Edinburgh and collect her daughter from nursery by say 12 or 12.30 latest.

Now , assuming this was a terrible accident, I find it an extremely short time frame for all this to happen - 3 hours or less ( drive time to Fife is about 40 mins each way ).
I realise that it could be done in this space of time, but it seems as though there would be no time to think and take in the horror of what has happened, almost as though as soon as poor Mikaeel was dead, there was instant action to move him and get home for the nursery pick up.
I am probably not explaining this very well, but I would find it hard to understand how anyone, other than a hardened criminal ( which I am sure she is not ) could work under this time pressure.

I agree, at the moment I'm thinking that whatever happened, happened on the Tuesday or Wednesday.

I think that there is every possibility that the charge will be downgraded before this gets to trial & may end up being either involuntary manslaughter or something similar.

My thoughts currently are that something terrible happened & she was scared that her other children would be taken away & so she made a terrible choice to lie & try to cover up the truth.

I'm thinking the period of time the twins were in foster care was more to do with her being unable to cope at that time and/or something related to acute overcrowding since that bungalow doesn't look that big to have been able to house the amount of people that were living in it at that time, rather than anything more sinister since only the twins were removed from her care.

I just keep going back to the instagram photo's & what she'd said on her dating profiles & all I'm seeing is a happy family unit...I find it so hard to think that Mikaeel's death was intentional & premeditated. Especially since as far as I know, not one person has come out yet & said that she was a 'bad' or 'neglectful' mother.

All we've had is the former neighbour who said that one of the fathers was unable to gain access to the flat one day & that the supposition was that she had gone out the night before & left them in there alone (and at the moment we don't even know if that account is true since the police haven't verified it)

I am astounded & ashamed though by the sheer number of vitriolic comments that have been left on her instagram page...why do people feel the need to do that? I just don't understand what goes through people's heads when they're saying these things

 

[CoverMeCagney]

In the trunk, yeah.

Or just within a 4 bedroom flat. My kids have never looked in our suitcases

(which are kept under a bed and are full of holiday stuff - disclaimer, Ziebel style!)