UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

[marynnu]

Replying to myself haha

To add:

She strikes me as a person bursting with energy:
- always doing something
- looking for additional tasks
(not designated babies,
preparing "memory boxes",
constant texting,
FB searches,
asking for overtime, etc.)
- going to salsa dancing after exhausting shift
Etc.

People with excessive, nervous energy/hyperactivity might suffer from anxiety disorder.

Was it a sign of restlessness?

If guilty, was it one of the factors?

JMO

To be fair, I had a lot of colleagues like this. For example, some would had for the gym straight after nights or drive miles to collect their child from uni, while I crawled off to my bed! And most nurses like to be busy. In my view I don't think any if this is significant.

 

[Dotta]

To be fair, I had a lot of colleagues like this. For example, some would had for the gym straight after nights or drive miles to collect their child from uni, while I crawled off to my bed! And most nurses like to be busy. In my view I don't think any if this is significant.

And I think EVERYTHING is SIGNIFICANT.

All tiny details are pieces of a jigsaw.

Throw away even 1, and the picture will not be complete.

A sleuth's motto

 

[marynnu]

Replying to myself haha

To add:

She strikes me as a person bursting with energy:
- always doing something
- looking for additional tasks
(not designated babies,
preparing "memory boxes",
constant texting,
FB searches,
asking for overtime, etc.)
- going to salsa dancing after exhausting shift
Etc.

People with excessive, nervous energy/hyperactivity might suffer from anxiety disorder.

Was it a sign of restlessness?

If guilty, was it one of the factors?

JMO

To be fair, I had a lot of colleagues like this. For example, some would had for the gym straight after nights or drive miles to collect their child from uni, while I crawled off to my bed! And most nurses like to be busy. In my view I don't think any if this is significant.

And I think EVERYTHING is SIGNIFICANT.

All tiny details are pieces of a jigsaw.

Throw away even 1, and the picture will not be complete.

A sleuth's motto

I just don't see it as a part of the puzzle. Still, that's why we're here isn't it, to discuss!

 

[Dotta]

I just don't see it as a part of the puzzle. Still, that's why we're here isn't it, to discuss!

Her psyche is a puzzle.

The key to this case is right there.

JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Interesting that she isnt happy about being contacted off duty, yet she sends her off duty colleagues blood sugar readings, oxygen readings and general updates seemingly every shift!!

Yes, and asking the designated nurse to keep her updated while she was at home would give nurses the impression that it was okay to discuss patients and their treatment with off duty colleagues.

 

[Sundial]

Interesting that she isnt happy about being contacted off duty, yet she sends her off duty colleagues blood sugar readings, oxygen readings and general updates seemingly every shift!!

Not forgetting the visit to the unit (baby G was it??, I can’t remember which!) whilst off shift.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

To be fair, I had a lot of colleagues like this. For example, some would had for the gym straight after nights or drive miles to collect their child from uni, while I crawled off to my bed! And most nurses like to be busy. In my view I don't think any if this is significant.

I just don't see it as a part of the puzzle. Still, that's why we're here isn't it, to discuss!

I agree. Real life isn’t like Chekhov’s gun. There will be things that just aren’t ultimately related to the charges she faces and whether or not she is guilty.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I think it has to do with LL's notes, compared to his notes, and the references to skin bruising and discolouration.

It is pretty confusing, but Meyers is maybe trying to discredit the notion that LL did anything to cause the bruising, when she was with the baby at around 5 am?

LL writes about the 'bruising/discolouration' in notes she took 19 hours after Dr Neames initial note. Then Meyers said that Dr Neames made no reference to that bruising/discolouration in his note. So he concludes the bruising happened much later and is not connected to the incident.

Dr Bohin disagrees with that conclusion and Meyers pushes back, accusing Dr Bohin of using that unrelated bruising as evidence of an air embolism. But then, after a short break, Meyers admits that he made a mistake, and Dr Neames DID mention the bruising/discolouration in his early morning medical notes. So did that mean that timing question didn't matter anymore?



"Lucy Letby's note of 'some bruising/discolouration evident on sternum and right side of chest, ?from chest compressions', written from 19 hours after the incident.Dr Bohin says this note is not from the time of the incident.


Dr Matthew Neame's note from the time of the October 13 incident is shown to the court, and Mr Myers says there is 'no reference to any discolouration' in that note, which described the collapse and the efforts to stabilise Child I.


Dr Bohin agrees there is not.

Mr Myers suggests the bruising appeared later and the discolouration 'does not link to that incident'.


Dr Bohin says it does, as bruising is not a result of chest compressions. It was first noted 18-19 hours later.


Mr Myers suggests Dr Bohin is using that unrelated evidence to support an air embolism. Dr Bohin disagrees.


After a short break, Dr Neame's note is shown again to the court. Mr Myers says he has been made aware the word 'mottled' appears in the note. Dr Bohin agrees she can see it.


Lucy Letby's note from the morning of October 14 is shown to the court. the note includes 'at 0500 abdomen noted to be more distended and firmer in appearance with area of discolouration spreading on right hand side'.


Dr Matthew Neame's note, made at 5.55am, is shown to the court. Mr Myers asks if it is a note from 5am. Dr Bohin says it does not say it was written retrospectively. She says if that note was related to 5am, then she had missed it.


Mr Myers asks if, from Dr Neame's note showing Neopuff was used, it could have contributed to the distended abdomen. Dr Bohin said it would not have done so to that extent.


Dr Bohin said the team did not have an obvious cause for Child I's deteriorations and she was always going to be transferred out to Liverpool on October 15.

Im not sure if that is it?

I get that there may be points to be made / evidence to be inferred from comparing notes written by the doctor with notes written by LL retrospectively 19 hours after the event.

But even after Myers is alerted to the presence of the word “mottled” in the doctors notes, he then starts asking whether dr Neames notes written at 5:55am were in fact about observations made at 5:55 am or whether the note was retrospectively recording observations made at 5 am. So they are quibbling about a 55 minute period.

LL’s notes say there was discolouration to baby I’s abdomen. Dr N’s notes appear to agree with that in that they record “mottling”. So I don’t understand what point Myers is trying to make . Why does this 55 minute period matter?

 

[Dotta]

I agree. Real life isn’t like Chekhov’s gun.

Oh, but it is exactly like Czechow's gun:

- if "this person" appears in the 1st act

Then...

- in the 2nd/3rd act a baby dies.


JMO

 

[marynnu]

I agree. Real life isn’t like Chekhov’s gun. There will be things that just aren’t ultimately related to the charges she faces and whether or not she is guilty.

Never heard of Chekhov's gun before, you learn something new every day!

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Oh, but it is exactly like Czechow's gun:

- if "this person" appears in the 1st act

Then...

- in the 2nd/3rd act a baby dies.


JMO

that’s certainly one of the main thrusts of the prosecution’s case.

But I was referring to other non medical evidence mentioned in this case and whether or not it is all relevant .

Let’s assume for these purposes that LL is guilty and take the Facebook searches as an example.

These searches may in fact have nothing to do with her hypothetical guilt . She may be an absolute nosey parker who acts as an online stalker in relation to virtually everyone she encounters in her life. The searches of the parents of the child who are the subject of this trial may constitute 1% of the total number of Facebook searches she carried out on people during 2015 and 2016.

Or equally, if she is guilty , the searches could be an online version of a murderer visiting the scene of the crime.

 

[Dotta]

that’s certainly one of the main thrusts of the prosecution’s case.

But I was referring to other non medical evidence mentioned in this case and whether or not it is all relevant .

Let’s assume for these purposes that LL is guilty and take the Facebook searches as an example.

These searches may in fact have nothing to do with her hypothetical guilt . She may be an absolute nosey parker who acts as an online stalker in relation to virtually everyone she encounters in her life. The searches of the parents of the child who are the subject of this trial may constitute 1% of the total number of Facebook searches she carried out on people during 2015 and 2016.

Or equally, if she is guilty , the searches could be an online version of a murderer visiting the scene of the crime.

I guess, if FB searches of victims' parents

"may constitute 1% of the total number of Facebook searches she carried out on people during 2015 and 2016" (quoting you)

then Prosecution would never bring it to trial.

Simply because it might not serve their purpose.

They present the most compelling evidence, leaving out these which are uncertain.

Prosecution seem to be sure, that FB stalking of the victims' parents is just "another brick in the wall" surrounding the defendant.
And closing bit by bit around this person.

JMO

 

[Music2022]

Two observations about the latest baby.
1. Again an unexpected collapse happened when baby was expected to go home soon. Fits the pattern.
2. From what the mum says hospital care was below expectations and not as professional as Alder. Fits the defence claim suggesting the whole care in Countess to be substandard.

Hard to figure out what to think in this case.

 

[marynnu]

Two observations about the latest baby.
1. Again an unexpected collapse happened when baby was expected to go home soon. Fits the pattern.
2. From what the mum says hospital care was below expectations and not as professional as Alder. Fits the defence claim suggesting the whole care in Countess to be substandard.

Hard to figure out what to think in this case.

JMO. You have to remember that Alderhey is a specialist children's hospital, so their skill re. things like stomas is bound to be greater. You don't see them very often on NNUs, and they can be quite tricky to care for. Also, it's very hard on parents when they move hospitals as they judge everything by the hospital which cared most for their child. This is really common. Either way, none if this would account for Baby J's dramatic collapse.

 

[Dotta]

Two observations about the latest baby.
1. Again an unexpected collapse happened when baby was expected to go home soon. Fits the pattern.
2. From what the mum says hospital care was below expectations and not as professional as Alder. Fits the defence claim suggesting the whole care in Countess to be substandard.

Hard to figure out what to think in this case.

I think one does not exclude the other.

In fact, substandard care on the whole and the alleged SK go hand in hand.

Where else such a perp would feel "like a fish in water" if not in "murky water"?

Where alleged unsuccessful "murder attempts" might be treated as...umm... "complications"?

LL might have whined about the "rubbish atmosphere" in the ward as much as she liked,

but...

did she really want to change the place of work??

No way! Didn't she stay there when put on administrative job?

And guess what?

She even bought a house near the hospital.

" East, west - CoC Hospital is the best!"

JMO

 

[Music2022]

JMO. You have to remember that Alderhey is a specialist children's hospital, so their skill re. things like stomas is bound to be greater. You don't see them very often on NNUs, and they can be quite tricky to care for. Also, it's very hard on parents when they move hospitals as they judge everything by the hospital which cared most for their child. This is really common. Either way, none if this would account for Baby J's dramatic collapse.

That’s true but mum also mentioned things like communication were poor. Sounds like a terrible hospital. That’s not to say there wasn’t a killer working there, two things can be true at the same time.

 

[marynnu]

That’s true but mum also mentioned things like communication were poor. Sounds like a terrible hospital. That’s not to say there wasn’t a killer working there, two things can be true at the same time.

Well, it all depends on your point of view. Do you mean the neonatal unit as opposed to the hospital? It's never struck me as terrible in the slightest.

 

[Music2022]

Well, it all depends on your point of view. Do you mean the neonatal unit as opposed to the hospital? It's never struck me as terrible in the slightest.

Hospital as a whole. I especially remember the mum who waited for days to deliver her baby after her water broke and was given antibiotics late.
Or in another case how they didn’t follow up on the blood work that later showed the insulin in the blood wasn’t made by the body.

 

[marynnu]

Hospital as a whole. I especially remember the mum who waited for days to deliver her baby after her water broke and was given antibiotics late.
Or in another case how they didn’t follow up on the blood work that later showed the insulin in the blood wasn’t made by the body.

The first was definitely an error, I agree, though to be fair had nothing to do with the neonatal unit. With the second, I can sort of understand the first time as they might possibly have put it down to an error in the testing. I think they should have been more proactive the second time though.

 

[esther43]

Yes, and asking the designated nurse to keep her updated while she was at home would give nurses the impression that it was okay to discuss patients and their treatment with off duty colleagues

Part two from yesterdays testimony:

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, February 10

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Letby says, in a message to a colleague, she had not had a good shift, as Child J had '2 profound desats' and there were 'only 5 staff' on duty.

The colleague replies: 'We closed again then? x'

Mr Johnson explains to the court 'closed' by this definition means the unit would be closed to new arrivals, not closed entirely.

Letby confirms the unit is closed until they can get someone in.

7:41am

A note is made at 7.15am recording that the parents of Child J are informed of the collapse and to come to the hospital as soon as possible.

Child J had a further collapse at about 7.24pm. Dr John Gibbs records the event in his notes.
Resuscitation efforts are made and a range of medication is administered, while observations are recorded and an x-ray made.

Letby is recorded as using her swipe card at the neonatal unit acess door at 8.55am.

Lucy Letby messages Jennifer Jones-Key just before 10.30am: "Wow it turned manic - left at 9.15 but others still there."

The reply: "Warned you..don't know what it is", adding that things seem to go "pear-shaped".

Jennifer Jones-Key messages Letby saying, of the staffing situation, 'more staff will just go off sick'.

A colleague of Letby messages her on the afternoon of November 27 to say: 'Oh and Tony Chambers n some woman turned up earlier! x'

Letby replies: 'Gosh it's mad. At least things are moving in right direction. Is it bit calmer now? Still only 5 tonight? Hope Tony got stuck in and helped!!'