UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #11

[JosieJo]

I don't think insulin is in the fridge. I think the bags are though. I could be wrong but I always thought insulin came out of the drugs cabinet.

Yea insulin was in the unit fridge

 

[Sweeper2000]

Its true to say that when looking at it through the eyes of a person capable of experiencing remorse you would expect to see a bit more of an 'edge' but than what we've seen so far.
But delving further into the research it seems those who are capable of serial killing are usually also very skilled at impression management.
According to the article below those involved in inflicting crimes in a heath care setting may experience 'killing' differently. This, they put down to a few things. Firstly it's the desensitisation to death and experience of being among it, secondly it's the ability to adapt quickly in a death type situation. So to use thinking skills 'in the moment'
Article also refers to 'doubling' which allows perpetrators to develop two 'selves'
All very weird and bizarre but here's the article incase you are interested.

Brave Clarice—healthcare serial killers, patterns, motives, and solutions - Forensic Science, Medicine and Pathology

Healthcare serial killing involves the intentional killing of multiple patients by a healthcare professional. It is a formidable challenge to identify in the medical context, and a daunting legal task to prove beyond reasonable doubt. What can be done or remains to be done to intercept these...

link.springer.com

makes for very interesting reading. There are some applicable points but I’m not sure with such a dearth of info relating to healthcare killers that any of it is set it stone.

specifically the impression management part or “social blending“. it appears to me she is oblivious to the potential that she could be held under suspicion, would appear to me that she is either oblivious or unnaturally good at appearing innocent. As an example the move to day shifts isn’t met with any resistance or questions, the time she mentioned “hurtful comments“ isn’t exactly a haughty and direct response to what seems to be very inflammatory remarks. It being a well known thing on the unit at the time I think would give an arrogant individual all the motivation for anger.

I’m not sure we can say there is a strong indication of attention seeking and I wouldn’t say judging by the info we have seen I could make an argument for her being a sensation seeker Either. seems to prefer low stimulation but that’s a guess.

no history of substance misuse, no evidence or indicators as of yet to a personality issue and absolutely no evidence of falsified credentials. The latter very much goes against her consistent history of being localised to the hospital after university. I think that runs in tandem with healthcare killers often moving from one place to another and so having to “create an image“ at each new place. Indeed she seems to be anchored around the countess.

jmo though. I could be very wrong.

yeh the insulin is kept in the fridge under lock and key. One set of keys that wasn’t logged was used to get access. Check the end of post #79.

 

[Lammergeier]

Another reference to the “poor skill” of other staff in her texts (okay, a poor skill mix, but I think this is a polite way of putting it!). She also moves on from the bad day quickly to focus on the positives of winning money, which doesn’t jive with theories of her doing it for attention. She was planning to have a party; if she wanted to milk the deaths for sympathy that would have been the perfect time, but we don’t see it.

About the bag - sorry sure this must have been covered already but how much of it is pre-prepared? Does LL take the pre-prepared mix and put it in the bag or is the bag itself already made up for her?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Another reference to the “poor skill” of other staff in her texts (okay, a poor skill mix, but I think this is a polite way of putting it!). She also moves on from the bad day quickly to focus on the positives of winning money, which doesn’t jive with theories of her doing it for attention. She was planning to have a party; if she wanted to milk the deaths for sympathy that would have been the perfect time, but we don’t see it.

About the bag - sorry sure this must have been covered already but how much of it is pre-prepared? Does LL take the pre-prepared mix and put it in the bag or is the bag itself already made up for her?

All of it is pre made at the hospital pharmacy. Think the docs put in a prescription and it’s sent up. Think todays evidence will cover when and if LL had any direct involvement when handling the bag for child L.

 

[Tortoise]

Another reference to the “poor skill” of other staff in her texts (okay, a poor skill mix, but I think this is a polite way of putting it!). She also moves on from the bad day quickly to focus on the positives of winning money, which doesn’t jive with theories of her doing it for attention. She was planning to have a party; if she wanted to milk the deaths for sympathy that would have been the perfect time, but we don’t see it.

About the bag - sorry sure this must have been covered already but how much of it is pre-prepared? Does LL take the pre-prepared mix and put it in the bag or is the bag itself already made up for her?

I can't seem to find where she mentioned the poor skill of other staff before, but may have missed it.

I remember her referring to others not pulling their weight.

There were 5 babies in room 1 on the shift where she texted "poor skill mix". LL had two and Mary Griffith had L & M, we haven't heard who had the fifth. Baby L was allegedly given an overdose of insulin and baby M was allegedly injected with air. Do you think she was referring to her own skills or Mary's? Mary was very senior, having worked there for 40 years. LL was texting her friends and her mum for much of the shift. I wonder if LL, if she is guilty of the alleged attacks on babies L & M, was manipulating her off-duty colleague into believing that there was chaos at work because of staffing issues, a deflection, so that they wouldn't suspect her.

Babies L & M didn't die, thankfully.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

All of it is pre made at the hospital pharmacy. Think the docs put in a prescription and it’s sent up. Think todays evidence will cover when and if LL had any direct involvement when handling the bag for child L.

We heard from the shift-leader nurse yesterday -

"The court is now hearing evidence from Amy Davies, a neonatal practitioner who was employed in the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital in April 2016. At the time, she was in Band 6.
She says she does not have any independent recollection of Child L.
From her notes, she was on the day shift on April 8, 2016, as shift leader. Lucy Letby was the designated nurse for Child L on the 8th, and Ms Davies confirms she assisted in the care.

She confirms she would have checked the infusion bag containing 10% dextrose with Lucy Letby, making sure it was in date, going to the right baby, and signing it. The infusion is noted as starting at noon on April 8.
Ms Davies says the pre-made dextrose concentrations available for infusion bags are 5% and 10%."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, February 15

opening speech -

The court is shown an 'infusion therapy prescription sheet', a written record of the dextrose bag fed to Child L.
The bag was running from noon on April 8, when it had been set up an hour earlier by Letby and another nurse.
Prosecutor Nicholas Johnson KC: "We say Lucy Letby added insulin to that bag of dextrose. She did it deliberately to kill [Child L]. "She had failed to kill [Child F] so gave an increased dose."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

 

[JosieJo]

This allegation is different from the previous insulin allegation as its not in TPN. Its in a bag of dextrose...these are usually normal bags of fluid ..what people normally think of in adults as "drips" .. imo they arrive by the box ...not usually prepared by pharmacy as the tpn does.
We may hear different but that's my take on it

 

[Tortoise]

The opening speech referred to the bag being changed at 4.30pm on the 9th April. The infusion went up to 12.5% from 10%.

And again it went up to 15% on the 10th.

I wonder how long the insulin would stay in his system, I'm sure the professor covered that with child F, but I don't know if the increased amount would stay longer.

 

[katydid23]

Lucy Letby, 33, allegedly attacked the prematurely born infants during a day shift at the Countess of Chester hospital’s neonatal unit. One of the boys, Child M, “dramatically” collapsed in his incubator in the unit’s intensive care room at 4pm on 9 April 2016, the court heard. His brother, Child L, also deteriorated beside him at “pretty much the same time”, theprosecutor, Nick Johnson KC, said.

Her father, John, gave her the names of three horses, including the eventual winner Rule the World, the court was told. Letby’s mother texted her at 5.25pm with the news that Rule the World had won.

Two hours after the unexpected collapse of Child M, Letby messaged a friend: “Work has been *advertiser censored* but … I’ve just won £135 on the grand national!! [horse emoji].”
Jurors at Manchester crown court heard Letby messaged her mother, Susan, at 1pm about the Grand National, dueto be staged later that day. She wrote: “Is dad betting on the Grand National? If so can he see which are greys and put a bet on for me please x”.

Lucy Letby: nurse won Grand National bet on day of attempted baby murders, court told

Letby texted friends about winnings on same day she allegedly tried to kill twin boys in incubator, jury hears

www.theguardian.com

 

[WaxLyrical]

The opening speech referred to the bag being changed at 4.30pm on the 9th April. The infusion went up to 12.5% from 10%.

And again it went up to 15% on the 10th.

I wonder how long the insulin would stay in his system, I'm sure the professor covered that with child F, but I don't know if the increased amount would stay longer.

I think there are different types of insulin, and some can hang around in the body longer than others. In the first insulin case it seemed to be clear that it had a very short half life and would have remedied itself very quickly had it not been continually infused. I’m not sure whether they’re alleging that multiple bags were poisoned for this baby, as it does feel like (based on what we learned from the other baby) the levels should have resolved faster than they did. However this is assuming that each dextrose increase required a new bag. JMO.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Not sure we are getting any reporting today folks. Checked the normal sources I know of but no mention. Checked Chester standard, mark dowling Twitter and general searched google news and Twitter.

not sure it’s been posted before but here’s the mails podcast for baby J. Episode 15.

 

[Dotta]

Not sure we are getting any reporting today folks. Checked the normal sources I know of but no mention. Checked Chester standard, mark dowling Twitter and general searched google news and Twitter.

not sure it’s been posted before but here’s the mails podcast for baby J. Episode 15.

Nothing new!
Already got used to it

 

[Dotta]

We are slowly plodding to the end.

The remaining Babies' cases are:
K, N, O, P, and Q.

And then what?

Defence version with unknown experts?

Or Closing Speeches and Jury deliberations (which might be very long)?
And the verdict/s.

It is nearer to the end than further.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Not sure if it’s included in the info for baby L. But the results for the blood sample took five days to come back.

“Insulin results from the blood sample taken from Baby L were not available until 5 days after the sample was taken. The insulin level recorded was at the upper limit of the capacity of the laboratory machine to measure insulin.”

https://twitter.com/MerseyHack

We are slowly plodding to the end.

The remaining Babies' cases are:
K, N, O, P, and Q.

And then what?

Defence version with unknown experts?

Or Closing Speeches and Jury deliberations (which might be very long)?
And the verdict/s.

It is nearer to the end than further.

JMO

I think once the prosecution’s evidence is finished we will hear from the defence. I would actually take a guess and say that will finish in the next two to four weeks as we have already heard the longest case and as you say not many to go now. The defence have stated a couple of times about questioning of witnesses etc to come at a later date so I will presume that will be last of all. Very difficult to guess about the defences experts and how long the jury will deliberate. So much info.

 

[Dotta]

And only a few posters made it from the beginning of the trial to today.
The most dedicated ones I guess.
Although a few new faces appeared along the way.
Well, it has been a long, arduous journey.
But we made it - always thinking of the Babies and their poor families.

The finish is near and the Jury will decide.
I trust Justice will be served.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

I think once the prosecution’s evidence is finished we will hear from the defence. I would actually take a guess and say that will finish in the next two to four weeks as we have already heard the longest case and as you say not many to go now. The defence have stated a couple of times about questioning of witnesses etc to come at a later date so I will presume that will be last of all. Very difficult to guess about the defences experts and how long the jury will deliberate. So much info.

Which witnesses has the defence stated it will question at a later date?

 

[Sweeper2000]

And only a few posters made it from the beginning of the trial to today.
The most dedicated ones I guess.
Although a few new faces appeared along the way.
Well, it has been a long, arduous journey.
But we made it - always thinking of the Babies and their poor families.

The finish is near and the Jury will decide.
I trust Justice will be served.

JMO

we still have two murder charges coming up as well. One includes a post mortem so think a lot of evidence will be included in that one as they found injury to the liver. Children o and p.

 

[Tortoise]

My prediction is, assuming no more illnesses, prosecution will close its case around 24th March. No defence case, or maybe just one witness regarding sedation of baby K, rest of March + 12 days in April for closing speeches (that's it with easter hols), beginning of May jury goes out.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Which witnesses has the defence stated it will question at a later date?

This is one. I’m sure there are others as well if I remember correctly.

“A 10% dextrose infusion is administered for Child F at 3.50am, plus a 10% dextrose bolus at 4.20am.

Dr Harkness said the administrations had "an effect", but the blood sugar levels "kept drifting up and down".

Mr Myers, for Letby's defence, says there will be no questions asked for Dr Harkness at this time.”

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, November 25

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.leaderlive.co.uk

 

[Bakers]

This is the case where they say she put insulin in the glucose. Child L was on milk feeds, not TPN.

Well thats intresting wasn't the milk donated breast milk?