UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

[Tortoise]

A change in pattern.
She's getting blamed for not been there?

we're getting ahead of ourselves with baby Q, but I think according to prosecutions opening speech LL had made a swift exit from the nursery right before his collapse.

 

[ColourPurple]

'We had (Child N) baptised during the day and that was recommended to us by Lucy.'

In written statements read to the court, the parents expressed surprise that the neonatal unit had no Factor 8 for their baby, even though they were aware he had haemophilia.

At one point a specialist haemophilia nurse had been sent from Alder Hey Children's Hospital to bring some factor in a taxi.

The father added: 'I remember feeling confused because his sats seemed normal. No one told us what (had) happened or why'.

Lucy Letby 'hugged mother after trying to kill her baby three times'

Lucy Letby is accused of trying to kill Child N three times while working as a neonatal nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital. She denies all charges against her.

www.dailymail.co.uk

must have been same time as the baptism maybe?

It depends if the written statements were just about that day or about his time at the hopital in general.

LL's text to the dr that morning mentioned giving factor 8, but no mention of them having to taxi it in or anything.

"At 11.29am Letby sent a Facebook message to the doctor telling him “small amounts of blood from mouth and 1ml from ng. Looks like pulmonary bleed on x ray [i.e. a bleed from the lungs]. Given factor 8 – wait and see”. "

 

[Tortoise]

I would agree. This is the “build a bond stage“ here I think. I’m not sure but your other post mentioned him putting in more effort. Would agree with that but I’m not convinced it doesn’t mean she is interested. Same as the don’t fancy him texts. I think that might just be her, not a particularly chatty person and no real experience in dating. She might have been working at that time as well so wouldn’t have much time to write lengthy engaged texts. Could be a factor in the staff texti on the unit as well. It’s ok but keep it brief.

brief and frequent

 

[ColourPurple]

Just to be very pedantic, he's not anonymous, none of the witnesses are. It's just that there are reporting restrictions in place as regards publising their identities.

Yes that is a tad pedantic lol . I think if it's good enough for David Banks to refer to it as anonymity, it's good enough for me.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I did find that strange. I thought it was common knowledge what haemophilia was. But then thinking about it, I think the reason I know exactly what it is is probably because it was a massive news story in the UK in the 1980s when a lot of haemophiliiacs contracted AIDS through blood transfusions. Which was a bit before LL's time.

I believe the public enquiry into that affair has only just concluded in past few weeks.

But, yeah, LL may not have heard much about it at all.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think everyone here accepts that they seem to be/or were becoming more than just friends. I don't think anything suggests he was going to Ibiza with her though, as he's asking her questions about her holiday rather than their holiday.

“Are you doing anything nice before you go on holiday? You're not having to do a long run of shifts to get the time off for that are you?”

Lucy Letby told colleague she ‘wanted to cry' after baby collapsed, trial hears

She denies the murders of seven babies and the attempted murders of 10 others between June 2015 and June 2016.

www.irishnews.com

This was the Devon holiday, though? The one with the parents.

Ibiza was a different one.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Ah ok, interesting, I’ve not heard of that before. Potential for it to be in the garage or something then (or she walked? Distance to the hospital from her home??).
Jmo

She was said to be living no more than a mile away from the hospital.

 

[ColourPurple]

This was the Devon holiday, though? The one with the parents.

Ibiza was a different one.

At the point he's asking, the holiday she was about to go on was to Ibiza. Apparently Torquay with the parents was in July. Why he started talking about Devon, I don't know. Maybe they cut out some texts in between , or maybe he was confused too.

 

[Sweeper2000]

At the point he's asking, the holiday she was about to go on was to Ibiza. Apparently Torquay with the parents was in July. Why he started talking about Devon, I don't know. Maybe they cut out some texts in between , or maybe he was confused too.

Maybe just talking about things they have in common? Dad offered a job there etc holiday is a typical talking point really. Could have started chatting about the Ibiza holiday and then moved onto the next booked time off.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think these messages suggest they weren't in a relationship at that time (especially being only 2 weeks since she told her friend she didn't fancy him)

Doc: 'Are you doing anything nice before you go on holiday? You're not having to do a long run of shifts to get the time off for that are you?'

LL: 'No off for nearly 2 weeks!'



Doc: 'Chocolate makes bad days a little better. Hope you liked it.'

LL: 'That's true. Just a shame I don't usually eat chocolate ... but on this occasion ...'

MOO

I've been going back and forth on this one. I definitely hear what you're saying and the texts seems to back up your opinion but offering the loan of a car suggests a much more familiar relationship than do the nature of the texts. I've never known anyone to offer to loan a car to someone they're merely flirting with. You'd only do that to someone you knew very well and absolutely knew was insured for it. If she wasn't then they'd both be committing an offence.

Everything about this case is just extremely bizarre.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yes that is a tad pedantic lol . I think if it's good enough for David Banks to refer to it as anonymity, it's good enough for me.

He was referring to the babies and parents though, I think.

 

[ColourPurple]

He was referring to the babies and parents though, I think.

No, he was referring to all the adult witnesses having anonymity.(and the babies having been given anonymity too because identifying them would identify their parents, who were adult witnesses)

"It's unusual though to have adult witnesses in court granted anonymity, but in this case an Order has been made doing that, because the view of the court and the judge in the case is that that will allow those witnesses...their evidence will be better for the court if they are granted that anonymity, but what that means though is that the babies have to be given anonymity as well, because if the babies were named then that would lead to the identification of their parents."

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 2: A scrawled post-it note

www.mailplus.co.uk

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

A lot will hinge on the much-publicized doctor's testimony I think.

prosecution opening speech:

"Child N was a "stable baby" who did not suffer any other "spontaneous bleeds" at any time as a result of his condition."
Lucy Letby trial - latest: Nurse 'adamant' she's done nothing to harm any of the babies in the case as defence begins

father's statement :
"On the day Child N was due to come home, on June 15, the father was at work."
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2


electronic evidence (day before bleed):

"In a family communication note: 'Mummy visiting this morning, carried out cares and feed. Put infant to breast. Discussed feeding at home'
The notes show Child N was ready to go home, apart from further treatment required for jaundice, and was on phototherapy.
Other family members visited Child N at the neonatal unit that day."
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2


prosecution opening speech re. 1st intubation (baby now 13 days old):

"Doctors were called and an attempt was made to intubate Child N.
He was “surprised by his anatomy more than anything else … I could not visualise parts of the back of his throat because of swelling”.
The doctor saw "fresh blood" in Child N's throat, which the prosecution say was the same seen in Childs C, E and G.
The doctor was unable to get the breathing tube down the throat of Child N as he was unable to visualise the child's tracheal inlet.
He attempted to intubate Child N on three occasions."

and

"She excluded the possibility of a pulmonary haemorrhage - in other words, bleeding in the lungs, causing the collapse on June 15. In her opinion such bleeding would not have occurred spontaneously in a child with Child N's degree of haemophilia.
It follows, the prosecution say, the bleeding was caused by trauma.
Professor Kinsey also ruled out heavy-handed intubation as a cause."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

defence opening speech:

Regarding the allegation Letby did something to cause Child N to bleed, the prosecution say the intubating doctor already saw blood, because Letby harmed him.
The defence disagree and say blood was "not identified until intubation had already happened, or was in the process of happening".
There were three attempts to intubate him.
The defence say, again, there was "sub-optimal care" for Child N.
Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement


electronic evidence :

Lucy Letby records, in a note written at 1.53pm for care at about 9am: 'Unable to intubate - fresh blood noted in mouth and yielded via suction ++.'

Letby messages her colleague on Whatsapp before 10am: 'Thanks for staying to help. Much appreciated.'

Before 11am
Doctor to LL: Is he ok?
LL: Small amounts of blood from mouth & 1ml from NG. Looks like pulmonary bleed on xray... Sorry if I was off during intubation...[reference to other nurse faffing] I like things to be tidy & calm (Well, as much as possible!)
Doctor: No, you were perfectly fine with me...I thought you were wanting to just get on with in case there was another desat.
LL: Well I have got my hair in a bun today, it's only fitting that I was 'serious Lucy' !!

Can someone give us an idea as to what is the “normal” number of attempts needed to intubate a baby of this age? Should it be something capable of being accomplished on the first try (if the person doing it is sufficiently senior)?

 

[Tortoise]

Can someone give us an idea as to what is the “normal” number of attempts needed to intubate a baby of this age? Should it be something capable of being accomplished on the first try (if the person doing it is sufficiently senior)?

I don't have an answer but I do know that according to opening speech when he collapsed again that afternoon the swelling and bleeding in his throat was such that two registrars and two consultants were unable to intubate him, and they had to call in a specialist team.

 

[Tortoise]

Does anyone know what "acide reaction" means?

re 15th June -

Child N was transferred to nursery room 1 at 8am.
A note is made on the resiting of the NG Tube - 'NG resited in right nostril with acide reaction.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2

 

[Tortoise]

For a different date we had this reporting, for which no context was given

re 2nd June (day of birth)

Chester Standard - "A second statement by nurse Caroline Oakley said there was nothing to suggest the naso-gastric tube had been moved, nor any difficulties with the tube being initially inserted."

BBC - "She also said that there was 'nothing to suggest' Child N's nasogastric (NG) tube had been 'physically moved once inserted'"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

 

[passionflower]

Does anyone know what "acide reaction" means?

re 15th June -

Child N was transferred to nursery room 1 at 8am.
A note is made on the resiting of the NG Tube - 'NG resited in right nostril with acide reaction.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, March 2

I googled it. Acid takes away oxygen from the brain etc

 

[Tortoise]

LL: 'That's true. Just a shame I don't usually eat chocolate ... but on this occasion ...'

I think this is such a strange thing to say.

She might as well have said 'I'd have preferred a packet of crisps but ah well I'll eat it'

I think it's tactless

JMO

 

[Becci]

I think this is such a strange thing to say.

She might as well have said 'I'd have preferred a packet of crisps but ah well I'll eat it'

I think it's tactless

JMO

More like a piece of fruit lol

 

[Tortoise]

I googled it. Acid takes away oxygen from the brain etc

ah I've just realised what it could mean. I think it was perhaps aspiration of stomach contents showing an acid result.

sorry I thought acide could be something else, but it's probably a typo