UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[esther43]

Sums it up for me, from the staff perspective. So very sad all round.

"Dr Brearey said: ‘Actually, the senior nursing staff on the unit didn’t believe this could be true up until the point and beyond when the triplets (Child O and P) died.

‘None of us (the consultants) wanted to believe it either. This all became very exceptional and it took a step back to think about it. The nature of these collapses, the unexpected nature of them, the lack of response to resuscitation, the unusual rash noted on a number of occasions and each time the association with nurse Letby.’

Dr Brearey said there were ‘no more events’ after Ms Letby left the neonatal unit."

Indeed it does.

 

[marynnu]

dbm

 

[e145]

Sums it up for me, from the staff perspective. So very sad all round.

"Dr Brearey said: ‘Actually, the senior nursing staff on the unit didn’t believe this could be true up until the point and beyond when the triplets (Child O and P) died.

‘None of us (the consultants) wanted to believe it either. This all became very exceptional and it took a step back to think about it. The nature of these collapses, the unexpected nature of them, the lack of response to resuscitation, the unusual rash noted on a number of occasions and each time the association with nurse Letby.’

Dr Brearey said there were ‘no more events’ after Ms Letby left the neonatal unit."

Yes I imagine it being difficult for colleagues to believe. You would just be shaking your head in disbelief. To have it put to you that the unexplained causes for collapse, the lack of expected response to resus etc for so many babies, has been deliberately caused by someone you work with. You would be hoping it wasn't true, going back over things, questioning things. Then it all stops when she leaves the ward...leaving colleagues in utter shock.

 

[e145]

I don't think we can assume she would think in a rational, logical fashion, if she is , allegedly. guilty of these actions.
These are compulsions if she has this condition. So it is not a rational decision to do any of this. Kind of more like an addiction maybe?


Perpetrators don't always think of the consequences. They often think they are smarter than others and will not be held accountable.


People with FOIA do not exhibit ghoulish behaviour before the onset of the condition. That is one of the reasons I think it may fit. JMO

FOIA?

 

[Imogenia]

I’ve got it. Here’s the coch policy regarding disciplinary actions and whistleblowing and the procedures.

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/86654/pf_revised_and_agreed__new_concerns_about_patient_care_and_whistle_blowing_policy__v4_mg_16.12.13.doc

Staff whose conduct is being investigated, have the right to be made aware of all relevant information obtained in the course of the investigation.
If necessary the investigation will be carried out under the terms of strict confidentiality, i.e. by not informing the subject of the disclosure until (or if) it becomes appropriate to do so. This may be appropriate in cases of suspected fraud or when there would be the possibility of irreparable damage to the working relationship of the people concerned. In certain cases, however, such as allegations of ill treatment of patients, exclusion from work on full pay may have to be considered immediately. Protection of patients is paramount in all cases.
The designated officer will submit a written report to the Chief Executive setting out the findings of the investigation.
If, as the result of the investigation, the Chief Executive decides that there is a case to be answered by the person(s) against who the disclosure has been made, the Trust’s Disciplinary Procedure will be invoked. If there appears to be evidence of a criminal act, the Chief Executive will consult the Police before invoking the Disciplinary Procedure.

I think this is the relevant documentaction. Says the same. They would have to have informed her of everything at every step of the way. We also know she I think she wasn’t actually excluded from work. Again supports the no evidence aspect of the case, so they will have to have told her they have no evidence that she did anything.

Policies are interesting. In a potentially very serious case the legal advisors (for the NHS Trust) would be consulted. If the police were informed prior to any NHS Trust Disciplinary Policy being invoked, the legal advisors (for the police) could be onboard also.

NHS Policies are written in order not to (for instance) exceed the dictates of ongoing relevant UK legislation, (primary or secondary). However, Policies must take account of the relevant legislation (such as the Public Interest Disclosure Act, as amended, as we see here).

NHS Policies could also be updated in the light of Judge-made law (case law).

NHS Policies should normally be followed by NHS staff. However, such NHS Policies are not, in themselves, legislation (such as an Act of Parliament would be, and which must be followed).

Very occasionally, it is possible to be legally negligent by strictly adhering to everything in a NHS Policy. This is one reason why senior staff in a NHS Trust would consult the solicitors advising the Trust.

The legal advice may be (very occasionally) not to follow certain parts of a NHS Policy in a given situation. Senior staff cannot be held legally negligent for obtaining and following appropriate advice from the appointed solicitors.

Therefore, it is impossible to say exactly how much she was told, or when.

However, most nurses would consult their Trade Union to help them establish why Trust Management was electing to act in a certain way?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Policies are interesting. In a potentially very serious case the legal advisors (for the NHS Trust) would be consulted. If the police were informed prior to any NHS Trust Disciplinary Policy being invoked, the legal advisors (for the police) could be onboard also.

NHS Policies are written in order not to (for instance) exceed the dictates of ongoing relevant UK legislation, (primary or secondary). However, Policies must take account of the relevant legislation (such as the Public Interest Disclosure Act, as amended, as we see here).

NHS Policies could also be updated in the light of Judge-made law (case law).

NHS Policies should normally be followed by NHS staff. However, such NHS Policies are not, in themselves, legislation (such as an Act of Parliament would be, and which must be followed).

Very occasionally, it is possible to be legally negligent by strictly adhering to everything in a NHS Policy. This is one reason why senior staff in a NHS Trust would consult the solicitors advising the Trust.

The legal advice may be (very occasionally) not to follow certain parts of a NHS Policy in a given situation. Senior staff cannot be held legally negligent for obtaining and following appropriate advice from the appointed solicitors.

Therefore, it is impossible to say exactly how much she was told, or when.

However, most nurses would consult their Trade Union to help them establish why Trust Management was electing to act in a certain way

yeh definitely. It’s a question of what exactly they could legally withhold from her. If she doesn’t raise any issues they can say as little as they like but after speaking to the trade unionist she will have been informed that “they need to provide you with any evidence for the transfer to clerical duties”. Only thing is they couldn’t find any evidence so they are extremely limited with what they could tell her. There will be legal guidelines as well. It’s a question of what exactly they could tell her in a situation where there is no evidence of her being responsible and how long they could withhold information from her. It’s also a situation that she could well deduce herself they have nothing or the trade unionist will inform her.

 

[Becci]

Do the nurses have to give evidence in the witness box or can they refuse or give a statement?

 

[LorriB]

Do the nurses have to give evidence in the witness box or can they refuse or give a statement?

They can refuse to go to court and give evidence, but could be compelled to do so. They can provide a written statement i believe only if prosecution and defense say it is 'agreed facts'.

They can refuse to respond to questions if it may be self incriminating.

That's my understanding. JMO

 

[marynnu]

Yes I imagine it being difficult for colleagues to believe. You would just be shaking your head in disbelief. To have it put to you that the unexplained causes for collapse, the lack of expected response to resus etc for so many babies, has been deliberately caused by someone you work with. You would be hoping it wasn't true, going back over things, questioning things. Then it all stops when she leaves the ward...leaving colleagues in utter shock.

I've tried putting myself in their position, imagining first a series of incidents like this, and then one of my trusted colleagues coming under suspicion & eventually arrested. It just doesn't compute. There were a few people I didn't like much, but never for one second would I not have trusted them.

 

[e145]

I've tried putting myself in their position, imagining first a series of incidents like this, and then one of my trusted colleagues coming under suspicion & eventually arrested. It just doesn't compute. There were a few people I didn't like much, but never for one second would I not have trusted them.

 

[e145]

Yes, so many different p

I've tried putting myself in their position, imagining first a series of incidents like this, and then one of my trusted colleagues coming under suspicion & eventually arrested. It just doesn't compute. There were a few people I didn't like much, but never for one second would I not have trusted them.

 

[e145]

Yes, you do try and imagine it as a scenario involving a colleague. I have worked with all kinds of people. I certainly don't expect to be best friends with everyone, but developing and maintaining good, professional working relationships makes a big difference. I have gone on to hear things that involved a former colleague. It's confronting to recall that person and be completely surprised at what has happened. Back when I worked with them I would never have believed it...would have defended them in fact. But, I have also gone on to hear about something that has not completely surprised me, recalling strange behaviors etc.
Thankfully, nothing like what LL is on trail for.

 

[Anxala]

There was more than one note.

The phrase I was commenting on wasn't prefaced with that.

My point is more that these are notes written by LL to presumably herself, not to or for anyone else. On that basis, I would view the "Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation." as her basic starting premise for all these notes of hers. In fact, were she to preface every note with the above or an equivalent of it, it would actually point towards her and those notes coming from a much more cynical, strategic and dark place.

If guilty, and these notes are LL trying to come to terms with her past having caught up with her, she surely wouldn't be asking herself why/how has this happened since she'd know the jig was up.

JMO of course.

 

[Sweeper2000]

My point is more that these are notes written by LL to presumably herself, not to or for anyone else. On that basis, I would see the "Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation." as her basic starting premise for all these notes of hers. In fact, were she to preface every note with the above or an equivalent of it, it would actually point towards her and those notes coming from a much more cynical, strategic and dark place.

If guilty, and these notes are LL trying to come to terms with her past having caught up with her, she surely wouldn't be asking herself why/how has this happened since she'd know the jig was up.

JMO of course.

Yeh think it’s fitting for someone who has absolutely no idea what she is facing.

 

[marynnu]

Further on from the discussions re. the infamous note, the part that I'd most like to understand is "I pay every day for that night". I imagine we'll never know what she meant.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Further on from the discussions re. the infamous note, the part that I'd most like to understand is "I pay every day for that night". I imagine we'll never know what she meant.

You sure that’s how it reads? Always thought it was “kill myself right now”. The r is joined up to the i so looks like a n. The i isn’t dotted though. Speaks of someone too hyped to dot the i and cross the t.

 

[Becci]

You sure that’s how it reads? Always thought it was “kill myself right now”. The r is joined up to the i so looks like a n. The i isn’t dotted though. Speaks of someone too hyped to dot the i and cross the t.

I thought that to

 

[marynnu]

You sure that’s how it reads? Always thought it was “kill myself right now”. The r is joined up to the i so looks like a n. The i isn’t dotted though. Speaks of someone too hyped to dot the i and cross the t.

I
Reading down from the top right, I see it as "I pay every day for that night now I'll never know...". To me, the writing fits. But I see what you mean, "night/right now" could equally belong to the other words that you quote. A puzzle, like so much in this case!

 

[Sweeper2000]

I
Reading down from the top right, I see it as "I pay every day for that night now I'll never know...". To me, the writing fits. But I see what you mean, "night/right now" could equally belong to the other words that you quote. A puzzle, like so much in this case!

I kind of think it fits with the feel of that particular passage on the note. First passage is lucid and calm then it gets messy probably corresponding with increasing fraught emotions. Everything after the “I don’t deserve to live“ but seems proper messy to me, the kind of thing one writes when literally just spewing stuff out or when someone is blowing their lid or in the emotional state where you say something like “kill myself right now”.

 

[marynnu]

I kind of think it fits with the feel of that particular passage on the note. First passage is lucid and calm then it gets messy probably corresponding with increasing fraught emotions. Everything after the “I don’t deserve to live“ but seems proper messy to me, the kind of thing one writes when literally just spewing stuff out or when someone is blowing their lid or in the emotional state where you say something like “kill myself right now”.

Just musing, but I wonder if a handwriting expert has had a look at it? I bet they'd leap at the chance!