UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[katydid23]

Having thought about this theory that she may have had a mental illness/medical condition that meant she made the babies sicker to get sympathy and compassion and attention, it doesnt line up unless she is enjoying all this negative attention of being in court as well.

I don't think we can assume she would think in a rational, logical fashion, if she is , allegedly. guilty of these actions.
These are compulsions if she has this condition. So it is not a rational decision to do any of this. Kind of more like an addiction maybe?

I know a mum in our neighourhood makes a great fuss of her daughter being wheat intolerant (more so than is warranted I have coeliac's in my home too) - and I have always wondered if she makes mothering her two more of full 24/7 job than it has to be to not have to hold a job even part time and presumably collects unemployment benefits etc too. We all know about mum's like rapper Eminem's who famously made her kids pretend they were sick to collect benefits. I can see sympathy and free stuff, attention and center of drama being factors here too

But LL must have known that killing babies could very fleetingly only bring in any kindness and positive attention - followed almost surely by extremely serious consequences ?

Perpetrators don't always think of the consequences. They often think they are smarter than others and will not be held accountable.

very confounded .....I am wondering if prosecution did search for any character witnesses who could attest to 'ghoulish' behaviour apart from the actual alleged incidents - and couldnt find any ? They only had 7 years of her outside of high school to look back on , shes so young.

People with FOIA do not exhibit ghoulish behaviour before the onset of the condition. That is one of the reasons I think it may fit. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I think a parent, particularly a mother, would not necessarily know, but would certainly wonder about a child whose behaviour was worrying. And would desperately try not to believe it. And later on try to convince herself that the child had "grown out of it". I did wonder here many moons ago if LL had perhaps harmed animals, even drowned kittens for example. And did LL ever say to her mother "It wasn't me!" when it obviously was. But I doubt very much if any mother in that situation would say a word about it. JMO

Child abusers and serial killers typically have those kinds of horrible clues in their early years---harming animals and bullying younger kids, etc.

But if she is exhibiting a different kind of disorder, FDIA as one example, she may not ever act out like that in childhood.

Typically the triggers for FDIA are the opposite. The subject is often a victim of sexual abuse or emotional neglect as a child, and may develop traumatic internal reactions as a result.

Don't Judge a Book by Its Cover: Factitious Disorder Imposed on Children-Report on 2 Cases

Factitious Disorder Imposed on Another (FDIA), also known as Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy (MSbP) is a very serious form of child abuse. The perpetrator, usually the mother, invents symptoms or causes real ones in order to make her child appear sick. Usually ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Dotta]

Can you imagine Consultants' faces when they learnt about FB searches and the note?

B/c I think those were discovered later by Police during investigation.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think the difference is that she wasn't under investigation. The babies deaths were. It's not the same as say a patient coming forward and saying that nurse attacked me, or attacked my child or elderly mother. These were deaths which might or might not have been murder.

There is no way (IMO) anyone would say anything to her about the non-existence of evidence of her harming babies before the police even knew if a crime had been committed.

IMO

You see I wasn’t really differentiating between police investigation and the internal investigation. im of the mind that the ”they have no evidence” is a reference to her work situation, “why have I had to hide away” is a reference to the future Or in other words,” I should be in work”. I wouldn’t tie it to the police not really. There’s no indication in two of the three notes that she has any idea she’s in The deep end or what’s she is accused of. It’s only when the internal investigation is concluded and police involved that the famous note is written, She must have known at that point. Must have been informed exactly why by that time.

I don’t see how she couldn’t be under investigation. The only reason for the sequence of events after the week she was put on clerical was a direct and tense exchange between Karen Rees and a senior consultant at odds about not letting LL back on the unit. It’s a direct complaint about a member of staff With actions following and in accordance with the complaint.

if my guess is correct that shows how long she keeps notes around for. That’s years almost and it’s a post it note.

 

[DinerMite]

what made you think different notes in her house were written around the same time?

All investigations would have been highly confidential, IMO.

I'm so confused. There is more than the "Hate" note? Have I missed something completely?

 

[Tortoise]

You see I wasn’t really differentiating between police investigation and the internal investigation. im of the mind that the ”they have no evidence” is a reference to her work situation, “why have I had to hide away” is a reference to the future Or in other words,” I should be in work”. I wouldn’t tie it to the police not really. There’s no indication in two of the three notes that she has any idea she’s in The deep end or what’s she is accused of. It’s only when the internal investigation is concluded and police involved that the famous note is written, She must have known at that point. Must have been informed exactly why by that time.

I don’t see how she couldn’t be under investigation. The only reason for the sequence of events after the week she was put on clerical was a direct and tense exchange between Karen Rees and a senior consultant at odds about not letting LL back on the unit. It’s a direct complaint about a member of staff With actions following and in accordance with the complaint.

if my guess is correct that shows how long she keeps notes around for. That’s years almost and it’s a post it note.

I don't think I was differentiating either.

I entirely agree, there is no indication she knows what she's accused of. That's why it stands out when she says they have no evidence.

There were many notes apparently, she might have forgotten she'd written them rather than purposely keeping them.

I'm gonna leave it here because this is all getting very repetitive, at least from my POV.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I'm so confused. There is more than the "Hate" note? Have I missed something completely?

Yes there's the ""I am evil " post it note that we'e seen a picture of , and also other notes that we've only heard references to :

Along with the 'I am evil...' note, there were other written notes, the jury heard.

Mr Johnson said these included phrases such as 'Why/how has this happened - what process has led to this current situation. What allegations have been made and by who?' and 'Do they have written evidence to support their comments?'.

The prosecutor said that in her writings Letby expressed frustration because she was not being allowed back on the neonatal unit and wrote: 'I haven't done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?'

'I AM EVIL. I DID THIS': Post-It notes written by nurse Lucy Letby

On day four of her trial at Manchester Crown Court the jury was told that messages written by Lucy Letby, 32, were found at her home after her arrest including one that said: 'I killed them on purpose.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

I'm so confused. There is more than the "Hate" note? Have I missed something completely?

yes.


"On July 3 she was arrested at her home, where the house was searched.
"In addition to some of the paperwork, they found some other interesting items.
"There were some Post-it notes with closely written words on them, some of which included the names of some of her colleagues.
"On some of the notes were phrases such as “Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation. What allegations have been made and by who? Do they have written evidence to support their comments?"

11:37am

"In her writings, she expressed frustration at the fact that she was not being allowed back on the neonatal unit and wrote 'I haven’t done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?'
"Her notes also expressed concern for the long-term effects of what she feared was being alleged against her and there are also many protestations of innocence."

11:39am

"On another piece of paper, she wrote: 'I don’t deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough”.
“'I am a horrible evil person' and in capital letters, 'I AM EVIL I DID THIS'.
"That, in a nutshell," Mr Johnson tells the court, "is your case."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

 

[notsure]

So, is there reasonable doubt?

 

[Tortoise]

So, is there reasonable doubt?

we are not permitted to discuss that during trial proceedings.

we are permitted to discuss whether murders and attempted murders occurred, just not whether the defendant did it.

 

[Eloise]

we are not permitted to discuss that during trial proceedings.

we are permitted to discuss whether murders and attempted murders occurred, just not whether the defendant did it.

the defence still haven't given their arguments yet either. Trial isn't coming to a close just because the prosecution are nearly through presenting all the babies' cases. We still have the defence to present, I presume they'll also go baby by baby. We still have a very long way to go?!

 

[Dotta]

the defence still haven't given their arguments yet either. Trial isn't coming to a close just because the prosecution are nearly through presenting all the babies' cases. We still have the defence to present, I presume they'll also go baby by baby. We still have a very long way to go?!

It is nearing to an end.

It was to last 6 months and it started in October.

 

[Tortoise]

the defence still haven't given their arguments yet either. Trial isn't coming to a close just because the prosecution are nearly through presenting all the babies' cases. We still have the defence to present, I presume they'll also go baby by baby. We still have a very long way to go?!

I hope not Eloise, I'm banking on trial estimate of this going to the jury in May being accurate...

 

[Marie Bell]

The prosecution, in its closing speech, will tell the jury what it considers to be the significance of anything in the notes, and how it wants the jury to view them as tying in to certain aspects of the other evidence. The defence will then, in its own case and in its closing speech will tell the jury why they are urged to view them in a different light. The judge will ultimately steer the jury as to what weight they may or may not want to give to them, and in what ways they can assist their decision, or not. So I'm personally not spending any time trying to analyse them at this point.

I feel the same about any attempts to try to establish any potential motive, or to look at the defendant's 'psychology'. She's innocent until proven guilty. It's after someone has been found guilty that it's fair and reasonable to start looking at what makes them tick. All just my opinion.

 

[Eloise]

I hope not Eloise, I'm banking on trial estimate of this going to the jury in May being accurate...

It is nearing to an end.

It was to last 6 months and it started in October.

There was a delay over the Christmas period extended due to juror unavailability which won't help that.

The podcast keeps saying "the defence have yet to offer their arguments" and that the defence still have to present their side. That they also haven't put forward their own experts.

I'm not saying the podcast is 100% guaranteed to be right but I figured experienced UK court journalists must be expecting that to happen with some reliability?

 

[Dotta]

There was a delay over the Christmas period extended due to juror unavailability which won't help that.

The podcast keeps saying "the defence have yet to offer their arguments" and that the defence still have to present their side. That they also haven't put forward their own experts.

I'm not saying the podcast is 100% guaranteed to be right but I figured experienced UK court journalists must be expecting that to happen with some reliability?

Who knows?
Certainly not me haha
Im not from the UK.

It is anybody's guess.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

There was a delay over the Christmas period extended due to juror unavailability which won't help that.

The podcast keeps saying "the defence have yet to offer their arguments" and that the defence still have to present their side. That they also haven't put forward their own experts.

I'm not saying the podcast is 100% guaranteed to be right but I figured experienced UK court journalists must be expecting that to happen with some reliability?

yes I noticed that too but I don't think they are basing that on the defence saying they are going to bring experts, I believe it is an assumption, just as they said something about she hasn't taken the stand yet.

The revised estimate given was May

JMO

It is now anticipated the case will run until May. Previously the jury had been told the case could run beyond Easter.
There will be a break for Easter, from April 6-17. After that point, the only planned interruptions will be for public Bank Holidays.
Members of the jury are being told not to book any holidays beyond Easter.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, January 10 curtailed due to juror absence

 

[Parker Knoll]

Probably the sheer volume of medical records that had to be combed through in detail, the many experts of various disciplines who had to be consulted, expert peer reviews again going through everything, the many interviews of all involved, staff and parents, and then the interviews with the accused and submitting the results of the police work again to the experts for further review and reports to be written. It wasn't a small investigation.

IMO

And stick Covid into the mix which won’t of helped.
The next few weeks are going to be very enlightening.

 

[Sillybilly]

This post lands at random:

Please stay on topic. This is a trial discussion thread to discuss matters presented at trial.

AFAIK, mental health has not been introduced at trial so please refrain from speculating about it or discussing potential conditions.

Also a reminder that if your post constitutes subjudice, it will be removed. Please preview your post to ensure that it does not express anything that points to either guilt or innocence.

Thanks !!

 

[katydid23]

No it says in certain cases they can withhold telling them until it becomes appropriate to do so ie when they pass the investigation on to the police for example. If they have no evidence she did anything they would have to tell her that and the reason why it’s being passed on. In this case it’s “we have unexpected deaths on the ward and the only link is you but he have no evidence it was you but are passing this onto the police“. that’s the only thing they could say to her. This explains the notes and gives an indication to which stage of the process they were written at IMO.

time period is at beginning of clerical duties, nothing said to LL as of yet. Relevant note is

On one note, she allegedly wrote: “Why/how has this happened – what process has led to this current situation. What allegations have been made and by who? Do they have written evidence to support their comments?”
This gives no indication to knowing about evidence or anything. This is also in line with the disciplinary procedure that recommends speaking with someone from a union at “first opportunity“ once a investigation has been undertaken officially.

the second note is probably written once this investigation had been concluded or at some part of it after being told about “no evidence“ and is also presumably after being put on clerical. She was on clerical for about a year right? That’s too long to have someone under investigation with no evidence and not tell them why.

“The jury was told that Letby wrote on another: “I haven’t done anything wrong and they have no evidence so why have I had to hide away?” This note implies imo that the investigation was not yet concluded or passed onto the police. Certainly gives no indication that she knows just how severe the situation was.

then chronologically the last note is the confession note once she has definitely been told exactly why there is an investigation. I think that makes sense considering the feel of the note. It’s self evident nature.

the second bolded passage is relevant to show that the internal investigation had no evidence as if they did she would have been suspended before op hummingbird. We know that though because it’s been in evidence that they needed the police to find anything. Tbh I think she is probably still suspended as there is no legal precedent to fire her at that stage. Have heard nothing to indicate her contract was terminated.

I would also assume they have to tell her something as it’s probably quite cruel to put someone under investigation without telling them why especially after time and without evidence.

Lucy Letby: police found note saying ‘I killed them on purpose’, court hears

Nurse accused of murdering seven babies on neonatal ward also wrote ‘I am a horrible evil person’, jury told

www.theguardian.com

all imo

So what is the explanation for

“I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough"
"I am evil I did this"

If she knew what the investigation was about, and that it included investigation into the deaths of her patients, why write something so incriminating ?