UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #17

[marynnu]

Following on from baby D onto baby E in the article is also interesting (right at the bottom of the article), her comments about baby E and how that “helped her to spend time with him etc” afterwards..
I sort of get it (if innocent) but, her explanation’s to the police even with baby E are very strange too.
If you’ve have deaths from A-E, always her shifts, how is any of it helping you emotionally? I just see how it helps “me” again. Very unusual uncomfortable behaviour IMO

I don't get why spending time with any baby who has died would help you. But to each their own I suppose.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Do we have any idea whether it would or would not be hard to push air through? Has anything like that been discussed by the experts, or have they tried to replicate it somehow?

It seems reasonable that it would be hard to push though, IMO. The syringe will have a much larger bore than the long line so it seems logical that it might be quite hard to push anything through it. "Hard" is all relative, though.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Twice now she's referred to them as "dead babies". Maybe, just me but I find them really cold, detached descriptions.


"It's very difficult, when you see dead babies it's hard to get that image out of your head."

and

'I don't know what I was looking for, but I would not be looking for photos of dead babies'.


Also did the police just say experts believed "air was injected" or specify that it was injected via the long line.

What would be expected for someone who was being questioned under suspicion of murder to say, though? Especially years after the events.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I have read/heard experts say that just answering “no” is a sign of innocence . If you just say ‘no’ to a question of whether you killed someone, that is less suspicious. If you feel the need to expand on that, it often indicates guilt.

So LL might be innocent or might have heard/ read the same thing as me and have structured her answers accordingly.

Yes, I can totally see that. Like when you question a young kid about what happened when you know they did it, they'll often come up with some elaborate story to try to convince you they didn't.

I'm fairly sure that were I innocent I'd not be trying to expand on answers with irrelevant information that's going to be inevitably torn to shreds. I think I might go further if I had something that categorically proved I didn't do it. For instance, if someone gets shot at 10pm in Newcastle and I can prove I was on top of Blackpool tower at the time then I'd certainly point it out.

 

[Sundial]

I don't get why spending time with any baby who has died would help you. But to each their own I suppose.

Exactly this. I mean did baby A not upset her enough, baby C and then D??
Essentially she’s saying that being with baby E helped her even though A,C and D had already previously occurred. And apparently she did not question that, those 4 cases either. Except she did, summarising and (I agree with others) deflecting and giving diagnoses but told the police different.
So strange.
JMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

Mother - Hey Johnny what are you looking in the fridge for?

Johnny - I don't know mum, but I wasn't looking for the coca cola

Come on!!

I get that but, again, we don't know what the prelude to her saying it was. She may be been asked outright if she were looking for pics of dead babies or it may have been asked in a way to imply same; So just what were you looking for, exactly, lucy?, that kind of thing. Especially if they had previously brought up the fact that she'd taken pics of dead babies. Perfectly reasonable that it may have provoked that response.

But, as it is, we don't have an accurately reported full account of the lead up to that comment so we can't say if it was totally bizarre or in keeping with the tone of the interview.

 

[Marantz4250b]

If guilty, then LL made a clear statement that points to her doing it on purpose, deliberately, something her attorney, likely present in the room, and BM, would have fought hard to have this sentence redacted from any transcript or video. The post-it notes and texts are deliberately masking the sharp mind that operates under extreme pressure and stress. Unflappable. If guilty, the motive is somewhere in those words Tortoise quoted "It would be very hard to push air through a long line. It's a hard pressure to push through." LL herself would have been under extreme pressure to confess when she stated this. And yet, she couldn't help herself. It would be hard to do but, if guilty, she did figure it out herself and she would be smarter than the doctors, who couldn't. Had to point it out. How smart she was.

I disagree that it is indicative of guilt. She says it "would" be difficult to push though. That, at least to me, indicates a theoretical opinion of how it would be. She didn't say "...it's very difficult to do..." or similar which would perhaps indicate that she'd done it or tried to do it.

 

[marynnu]

Exactly this. I mean did baby A not upset her enough, baby C and then D??
Essentially she’s saying that being with baby E helped her even though A,C and D had already previously occurred. And apparently she did not question that, those 4 cases either. Except she did, summarising and (I agree with others) deflecting and giving diagnoses but told the police different.
So strange.
JMO

It's like there is too much emotional involvement, as we've seen elsewhere. Spending time with their baby definitely helps parents, but I don't see it with a nurse. Feeling you've done a good job supporting the parents has its own rewards, but it's not something anybody really wants to do if they're honest.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yes, I see. By 'run through the long line' they mean that this was the route used once the fluid reached the baby. The tubing from the bag is commonly called a giving set. This is run through with fluid then connected to whatever access you're using - IV cannulla, UVC, long line. This is all done using a pump to apply pressure - if you just used gravity nothing would go into a long line, it's just too narrow & too long. If it needs flushing 'manually' a lot of pressure can be needed - though I wouldn't say it was impossible to inject air as LL says, I mean who knows!

I'm not sure she ever did say it would be impossible. Just hard.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Exactly this. I mean did baby A not upset her enough, baby C and then D??
Essentially she’s saying that being with baby E helped her even though A,C and D had already previously occurred. And apparently she did not question that, those 4 cases either. Except she did, summarising and (I agree with others) deflecting and giving diagnoses but told the police different.
So strange.
JMO

Or maybe that was generic banter discussed frivolously and thus wasn’t remembered. People say a nurse shouldn’t diagnose but suggesting possible causes of a health issue as very passing conversation isn’t diagnosing. It’s talking nothing more and was deemed as forgettable by herself and colleagues.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Duplicate!

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, I see. By 'run through the long line' they mean that this was the route used once the fluid reached the baby. The tubing from the bag is commonly called a giving set. This is run through with fluid then connected to whatever access you're using - IV cannulla, UVC, long line. This is all done using a pump to apply pressure - if you just used gravity nothing would go into a long line, it's just too narrow & too long. If it needs flushing 'manually' a lot of pressure can be needed - though I wouldn't say it was impossible to inject air as LL says, I mean who knows!

Expert Dr Marnerides says the cause of death was most likely 'exogenous air administration through the longline or UVC'.

 

[Sweeper2000]

dbm

 

[marynnu]

Fair

I'm not sure she ever did say it would be impossible. Just hard.

Fair enough, my mistake!

 

[marynnu]

Expert Dr Marnerides says the cause of death was most likely 'exogenous air administration through the longline or UVC'.

That could be either in the giving set (unlikely due to sensors in the pump, and the likely presence of a filter) or direct injection near to the baby via a rubber port or a 3-way tap. What they just indicates the route not the method.

 

[Dotta]

I get the impression from this they’re asking her the specifics/mechanics of an air embolism, and that’s what she doesn’t know, which is fair as is seems like very few do. JMO

What do you mean "very few do"?
We are talking about nurses.
My nurse cousin said it is basics at Medical University.
They learnt the mechanism - when you understand it, you will never fail a patient.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

What do you mean "very few do"?
We are talking about nurses.
My nurse cousin said it is basics at Medical University.
They learnt the mechanism - when you understand it, you will never fail a patient.

JMO

I was a nurse for a long time and knew very little about the details. You don't need to. All you need to know is that it's dangerous & how to avoid it. Knowing the ins & outs wouldn't make you the slightest bit safer. LL's response is perfectly OK.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Yes, I see. By 'run through the long line' they mean that this was the route used once the fluid reached the baby. The tubing from the bag is commonly called a giving set. This is run through with fluid then connected to whatever access you're using - IV cannulla, UVC, long line. This is all done using a pump to apply pressure - if you just used gravity nothing would go into a long line, it's just too narrow & too long. If it needs flushing 'manually' a lot of pressure can be needed - though I wouldn't say it was impossible to inject air as LL says, I mean who knows!

This is really interesting, and could potentially shed some light on the suggestion that some babies were administered air quickly and in higher volumes than potentially other babies, resulting in different outcomes for the babies. Eg distribution via a long line might mean the air is introduced more slowly than, say, the UVC.

Just speculating, based on my zero medical knowledge. JMO, if guilty, etc.

 

[esther43]

I don't get why spending time with any baby who has died would help you. But to each their own I suppose.

It seems it was picked up on by management several times. I can understand it happening once and management having to find a diplomatic way to get her to readdress her rubbish boundaries but it seems like it was several times by several different people. LL was appeared quite bratty about this at times. Yet interestingly, LL told Dr choc that the girls are all quite happy with her being in room 1 due to the skill mix.
The story LL tells herself and tells others about herself just don't marry up with what others were saying to her. Begs the question as to whether she was an eternal optimist or removed from reality.

 

[Sundial]

It's like there is too much emotional involvement, as we've seen elsewhere. Spending time with their baby definitely helps parents, but I don't see it with a nurse. Feeling you've done a good job supporting the parents has its own rewards, but it's not something anybody really wants to do if they're honest.

Absolutely not, I agree. Many moons ago now I worked in a care home and my first encounter was upsetting enough and I was around her age too. Across the years with frail adults it is sadly part of the role and something I had actually only occasionally seen (even in adult care) on shift. Nothing like the spikes in death like on this unit at all.
But I always remember when there had been a death, that sad reluctance of being the one to tend to last cares.
I understand this is different for everyone and a different patient group with a tiny infant not having a chance at life; BUT I have never encountered anyone who is “animated” (as the doctor reported regarding ll behaviour), emotionally attached like this or excited to carry out this task.

It’s disrespectful (for the patient and their loved ones) unprofessional and just plain weird.
JMO