UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #17

[Anxala]

On your last point. I don't think that that follows at all. Again, we don't know if this scenario was put to her or it was implied that that was what she was looking for. To be honest, it seems to be a strange response to begin with as why would anyone think there would be photos of dead babies on FB? It gives the impression that she'd been primed by circumstances to say that.

Agree. We're reading summaries, after all, and pretty brief ones at that, which means we're only getting fragments of her interviews. We've no idea about the lead up to that response from LL so it's perfectly reasonable to speculate over both how the questions were posed, their phrasing, and what phrasing in particular might have led up to the one to which she gave this answer -

'I don't know what I was looking for, but I would not be looking for photos of dead babies'

This to me, based on what we know of how she responded to other questions, seems like she's addressing a specific question. Her response may even have had a hint of impatience/sarcasm in it. Who knows?

Not us, that's for sure, in the absence of sight/sound of the full interview.

 

[Sweeper2000]

But she wasn’t always the treating nurse though. Some of these babies she wasn’t even supposed to be caring for. Baby C for example 6 mins after her “frustrated” POV he then collapses.

My way or no way behaviour, if guilty.

I mean, why would it be her POV clinical treatment and no-one else’s on that team? She would not have been the only one with neonatal experience and/or qualifications. Even generic healthcare assistants in hospitals have a skill set admirable by nurses and consultants. The nursery nurse with years of experience too. Granted they can’t carry out the same clinical care as trained nurses, but it wasn’t as if she was working with (or messaging) colleagues from a non-healthcare background.

It’s a neonatal unit and this is a skilled team of staff. Her POV via messages is quite in contrast compared to that of her (also skilled in clinical treatment) colleagues.

JMO

I get that too and largely agree. Tbh I can’t think of an answer for it either other than one that points to her being oblivious perhaps of an unquestioning nature.if innocent ofc.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Surely it crosses the line when desire or curiosity turn into action

I wouldnt see it that way tbh. Anything that takes you a step closer to going from a curiosity to a desire is over the line for me. I know it’s not wrong or illegal to think about things but when your unwittingly dragging your desire to a possible action by thinking about it your crossing the line for me. I don’t think you have to wait until something has actually happened for it to be actionable.

 

[Sundial]

Slightly off topic but this reminds me of when my dad died. When I met people on different occasions immediately after, some just acquaintances and some close friends, a small number started crying and getting really upset, which put me in the awkward position of comforting them! It was very weird. However, although that was unexpected, I would definitely not have been happy if it had happened in a professional context, for example having the nurses who had looked after him crying over my shoulder. That would have been incredibly selfish of them, IMO.

I’ve experienced something similar. It is as you say, very weird.
Someone suggested here previously (maybe @Dotta) I can’t recall? A grief vampire? Is that the term?

It feels very much as if they want to experience/want that grief even if they are not actually attached to someone in the same way as those closest.
Sure these types of people can be upset, even so when in your care. But the type you mention, exactly this, is what I mean and it’s very strange indeed.
Moo

 

[Dotta]

Are all the people who think she's innocent men? That would be interesting to know!

Did I say ALL the people?

 

[Dotta]

I’ve experienced something similar. It is as you say, very weird.
Someone suggested here previously (maybe @Dotta) I can’t recall? A grief vampire? Is that the term?

It feels very much as if they want to experience/want that grief even if they are not actually attached to someone in the same way as those closest.
Sure these types of people can be upset, even so when in your care. But the type you mention, exactly this, is what I mean and it’s very strange indeed.
Moo

Sorry, it wasn't me.
I don't use this term - it creeps the hell out of me.

 

[esther43]

I’ve experienced something similar. It is as you say, very weird.
Someone suggested here previously (maybe @Dotta) I can’t recall? A grief vampire? Is that the term?

It feels very much as if they want to experience/want that grief even if they are not actually attached to someone in the same way as those closest.
Sure these types of people can be upset, even so when in your care. But the type you mention, exactly this, is what I mean and it’s very strange indeed.
Moo

At one point the officer asked if the Facebook searches were obsessive, when you put the LL's behaviour around the families together with the handover notes and FB searches, it suggests that there was an element of obsession there. It's for LL to prove that there were other reasons I guess for all this behaviour, will be very interesting to hear her explanation.

 

[Sundial]

Sorry, it wasn't me.
I don't use this term - it creeps the hell out of me.

My mistake. Apologies; I agree though, it’s a creepy term, one I’d not heard of before joining ws but it summarises the idea well.

If guilty etc
JMO

 

[notsure]

Slightly off topic but this reminds me of when my dad died. When I met people on different occasions immediately after, some just acquaintances and some close friends, a small number started crying and getting really upset, which put me in the awkward position of comforting them! It was very weird. However, although that was unexpected, I would definitely not have been happy if it had happened in a professional context, for example having the nurses who had looked after him crying over my shoulder. That would have been incredibly selfish of them, IMO.

I can imagine that would be uncomfortable, re friends crying over your dad's death. I guess the thing is that people have different reactions in those circumstances. Not sure how I would have felt if a nurse had cried about the deaths of my parents or other family members. I think maybe everything is so surreal at the time, that everything seems weird. One thing I would say is that when a close family member dies, you remember a lot of details.

 

[Sundial]

At one point the officer asked if the Facebook searches were obsessive, when you put the LL's behaviour around the families together with the handover notes and FB searches, it suggests that there was an element of obsession there. It's for LL to prove that there were other reasons I guess for all this behaviour, will be very interesting to hear her explanation.

Again; “Can’t remember” most likely.

 

[Dotta]

It's for LL to prove that there were other reasons I guess for all this behaviour, will be very interesting to hear her explanation.

It would be like "Waiting for Godot"

JMO

 

[notsure]

I’ve experienced something similar. It is as you say, very weird.
Someone suggested here previously (maybe @Dotta) I can’t recall? A grief vampire? Is that the term?

It feels very much as if they want to experience/want that grief even if they are not actually attached to someone in the same way as those closest.
Sure these types of people can be upset, even so when in your care. But the type you mention, exactly this, is what I mean and it’s very strange indeed.
Moo

I think this kind of behaviour could possibly partly stem from the kind of reality tv we are exposed to these days, in which we watch people suffering, and briefly (for the duration of the program) feel sad for them. Just a thought.

 

[Dotta]

My mistake. Apologies; I agree though, it’s a creepy term, one I’d not heard of before joining ws but it summarises the idea well.

If guilty etc
JMO

It is OK.
But that is how rumours start

I happily take responsibility, but only for my OWN words.

 

[Legal]

Did I say ALL the people?

Ha ha no, I was just wondering aloud!

 

[DinerMite]

Baby A triggered a reaction similar to the one at LW where a Baby dies under her care, she gets given another which helps her overcome it and the team are supportive.

Baby A dies under LL care, she doesn't get given another in place (despite her requests), no team spirit, LL states she will overcome it herself to JJK. Baby C dies 6 minutes later.

The following morning LL texts JJK and apologies for her texts the night before and tells her of C. She doesn't seem focused on replacing the image anymore, that desire appears to have gone, no mention of it at all. She refers to how well the team worked before messaging a colleague later to say: "It's not about me or anybody else, it's those poor parents who have to walk away without their baby."


Might be waffling now but it's strange how the death of Baby C seemingly 'fixed' her issue with Baby A. She doesn't mention it again to JJK and her subsequent messages don't suggest the same turmoil. It's bizarre.

 

[Dotta]

Baby A triggered a reaction similar to the one at LW where a Baby dies under her care, she gets given another which helps her overcome it and the team are supportive.

Baby A dies under LL care, she doesn't get given another in place (despite her requests), no team spirit, LL states she will overcome it herself to JJK. Baby C dies 6 minutes later.

The following morning LL texts JJK and apologies for her texts the night before and tells her of C. She doesn't seem focused on replacing the image anymore, that desire appears to have gone, no mention of it at all. She refers to how well the team worked before messaging a colleague later to say: "It's not about me or anybody else, it's those poor parents who have to walk away without their baby."


Might be waffling now but it's strange how the death of Baby C seemingly 'fixed' her issue with Baby A. She doesn't mention it again to JJK and her subsequent messages down suggest the same turmoil. It's bizarre.

If guilty

It seemed as if collapses/deaths strangely "energized" her - eg: enthusiastically "salsa dancing", betting on horses.

JMO

 

[esther43]

Baby A triggered a reaction similar to the one at LW where a Baby dies under her care, she gets given another which helps her overcome it and the team are supportive.

Baby A dies under LL care, she doesn't get given another in place (despite her requests), no team spirit, LL states she will overcome it herself to JJK. Baby C dies 6 minutes later.

The following morning LL texts JJK and apologies for her texts the night before and tells her of C. She doesn't seem focused on replacing the image anymore, that desire appears to have gone, no mention of it at all. She refers to how well the team worked before messaging a colleague later to say: "It's not about me or anybody else, it's those poor parents who have to walk away without their baby."


Might be waffling now but it's strange how the death of Baby C seemingly 'fixed' her issue with Baby A. She doesn't mention it again to JJK and her subsequent messages don't suggest the same turmoil. It's bizarre.

Good point and this fixing pattern also seemingly evident in FB searches, every time a baby dies she goes back and checks others.

 

[DinerMite]

If guilty

It seemed as if collapses/deaths strangely "energized" her - eg: enthusiastically "salsa dancing", betting on horses.

JMO

I'm not sure if energised or simply fixed/cured her.

I just find it strange Baby C's death appears to eliminate the turmoil of Baby A. You'd expect an alive baby or one that lives (such as Baby B) to help her, rather than another dead baby. It makes me wonder if she is putting these babies in this position to allow fate to take its course, almost like a redo - this time they won't die because she isn't good enough but they'll die because of fate.

Probably not making sense but hopefully someone understands my POV haha

 

[esther43]

If guilty

It seemed as if collapses/deaths strangely "energized" her - eg: enthusiastically "salsa dancing", betting on horses.

JMO

Is the behaviour after the attacks consistent though?

 

[notsure]

Maybe she wanted to be treated like a baby and was jealous of the attention those babies were getting. Can't believe I just wrote that, but as we're hypothesising...