ColourPurple
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Yes, it's the "I killed them on purpose" that she needs to explain
UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19
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WaxLyrical
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It’s the same note, the green post it
Edit: sorry I misread what you were saying. Yes she wrote this before her first arrest, but after being told by the (hospital?) that she was responsible for the deaths?
Tortoise
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10:34
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
I’m the only BBC correspondent in the courtroom itself, and one of only five reporters in court number seven at Manchester Crown Court.
Because of the level of interest in the case most of those covering the trial are watching on a video link from an annexe in a different building.
For the last six months Lucy Letby has been sitting inside the dock, flanked by prison officers, watching proceedings from behind a glass screen.
Now she’s made the short journey across the courtroom to the witness box, and it’s my first chance to see her close up, from my seat nearby.
She is sitting directly opposite the jury who’ll decide her fate. After half a year’s worth of prosecution evidence, this is the first chance they’ve had to hear from her directly.
Posted at 10:3610:36
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
His Honour Judge Goss is in court and the jurors are also coming in now.
Lucy Letby is in the witness box, sitting directly opposite them. She's flanked by two prison officers.
Posted at 10:3710:37
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby is standing now and has given her oath.
She's being questioned by her defence barrister Ben Myers KC.
She gives her full name as Lucy Letby, and her date of birth. She's 33 now, but was 25-26 at the time of the alleged offences.
Posted at 10:4010:40
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers says he will begin by asking her about her background.
She says she grew up in Hereford, and went to school and local sixth form college there. She says, "I've always wanted to work with children" but that it was towards the end of A levels that she chose nursing.
She says: "I was the first person in the family to go to university."
She did a three year degree programme at Chester.
She says: "The majority of my clinical placements were at the Countess of Chester Hospital, either at the children's ward or on the neonatal unit. I qualified in September 2011."
Posted at 10:4110:41
BBCCopyright: BBC
A little earlier, Lucy Letby's parents, John and Susan Letby, were seen entering the court to hear their daughter's evidence.
Letby's barrister Ben Myers KC was also filmed entering the court in Manchester.
Letby facing jury who will decide her fate
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
I’m the only BBC correspondent in the courtroom itself, and one of only five reporters in court number seven at Manchester Crown Court.
Because of the level of interest in the case most of those covering the trial are watching on a video link from an annexe in a different building.
For the last six months Lucy Letby has been sitting inside the dock, flanked by prison officers, watching proceedings from behind a glass screen.
Now she’s made the short journey across the courtroom to the witness box, and it’s my first chance to see her close up, from my seat nearby.
She is sitting directly opposite the jury who’ll decide her fate. After half a year’s worth of prosecution evidence, this is the first chance they’ve had to hear from her directly.
Posted at 10:3610:36
Letby is in the witness box flanked by prison officers
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
His Honour Judge Goss is in court and the jurors are also coming in now.
Lucy Letby is in the witness box, sitting directly opposite them. She's flanked by two prison officers.
Posted at 10:3710:37
Defendant will be questioned by her barrister
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby is standing now and has given her oath.
She's being questioned by her defence barrister Ben Myers KC.
She gives her full name as Lucy Letby, and her date of birth. She's 33 now, but was 25-26 at the time of the alleged offences.
Posted at 10:4010:40
Post update
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers says he will begin by asking her about her background.
She says she grew up in Hereford, and went to school and local sixth form college there. She says, "I've always wanted to work with children" but that it was towards the end of A levels that she chose nursing.
She says: "I was the first person in the family to go to university."
She did a three year degree programme at Chester.
She says: "The majority of my clinical placements were at the Countess of Chester Hospital, either at the children's ward or on the neonatal unit. I qualified in September 2011."
Posted at 10:4110:41
Lucy Letby's parents in court
BBCCopyright: BBC
A little earlier, Lucy Letby's parents, John and Susan Letby, were seen entering the court to hear their daughter's evidence.
Letby's barrister Ben Myers KC was also filmed entering the court in Manchester.
Marantz4250b
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11:08am
Mr Myers says he will go through the background material for Letby first, then talk through the cases involving the babies.
Letby is asked about the Countess of Chester Hospital, and working there.
She says her first placement on the neonatal unit was in 2010. As a full-time qualified nurse, her first work there was in January 2012.
At that time, she was qualified to care for special care and high dependency babies - 'predominantly in nursery rooms 3 and 4'.
www.chesterstandard.co.uk
I suspect that she's likely to be up there for a looooong time!
Mr Myers says he will go through the background material for Letby first, then talk through the cases involving the babies.
Letby is asked about the Countess of Chester Hospital, and working there.
She says her first placement on the neonatal unit was in 2010. As a full-time qualified nurse, her first work there was in January 2012.
At that time, she was qualified to care for special care and high dependency babies - 'predominantly in nursery rooms 3 and 4'.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins
The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…
I suspect that she's likely to be up there for a looooong time!
WaxLyrical
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She’s essentially saying the “I killed then on purpose” has an implied “they think/they’re saying”.
Tortoise
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Posted at 10:4610:46
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
When asked how many babies she had cared for during the period in question, she says: "Probably hundreds."
Myers, Letby's defence barrister, goes on to ask her: "And did you care for them?", to which she replies "yes".
She is then asked if she ever wanted to hurt any baby.
"No that’s completely against what being a nurse is, I only wanted to help and to care for them," she says.
She is then asked how she felt when she was taken off duty.
"I was distraught... It was life changing. I was put into a non-clinical role which I didn't enjoy... from a self confidence point of view it made me question everything about myself."
Posted at 10:4810:48
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers is asking Letby how she felt when she learnt what she was being accused of.
"It was sickening, I just couldn't believe it. It was devastating," she says, adding: "I don't think you can be accused of anything worse than that. I just changed as a person. My mental health deteriorated. I felt very isolated."
Posted at 10:4910:49
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby is speaking calmly and clearly.
Her parents are sitting just behind her in the public gallery, along with two friends.
Some of the parents of the babies who died or were harmed at the Countess of Chester neonatal unit are also in court.
Posted at 10:5010:50
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby is crying in the witness box.
She says "my job was my life" and "my whole world was stopped".
She is still crying.
Posted at 10:5210:52
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Asked how hard it is to cope "with what you're being accused of", Letby says "everything has changed".
"Everything about me, my hopes for the future, has changed... I've been remanded in prison since November 2020. I've been in four different prisons."
Posted at 10:5310:53
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers asks Lucy Letby about the first time she was arrested.
She says: "There was a loud knocking at the door at six o'clock in the morning. My father was staying with me at that point. He was staying there too."
She is crying and wiping her eyes with tissues.
Letby says she was told she was being arrested on suspicion of the murder and attempted murder of multiple babies, and was taken to the police station in her pyjamas.
When she was released she wasn't allowed to return to Chester. She went to live with her parents in Hereford.
Posted at 10:5610:56
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby says that at her parents home there was loud banging on the door again, and it was the police for a second time.
She says "it was the scariest thing I've ever been through, and it's traumatised me".
She says she is now very sensitive to any noise, any unexpected change. She gets startled. She says she has been diagnosed with PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) in direct relation to the arrests.
When Letby was arrested for the third time she was taken into custody.
She says she makes a three hour round trip to court each day.
I only wanted to help and to care for babies - Letby
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
When asked how many babies she had cared for during the period in question, she says: "Probably hundreds."
Myers, Letby's defence barrister, goes on to ask her: "And did you care for them?", to which she replies "yes".
She is then asked if she ever wanted to hurt any baby.
"No that’s completely against what being a nurse is, I only wanted to help and to care for them," she says.
She is then asked how she felt when she was taken off duty.
"I was distraught... It was life changing. I was put into a non-clinical role which I didn't enjoy... from a self confidence point of view it made me question everything about myself."
Posted at 10:4810:48
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers is asking Letby how she felt when she learnt what she was being accused of.
"It was sickening, I just couldn't believe it. It was devastating," she says, adding: "I don't think you can be accused of anything worse than that. I just changed as a person. My mental health deteriorated. I felt very isolated."
Posted at 10:4910:49
Letby's parents sitting behind her in court
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby is speaking calmly and clearly.
Her parents are sitting just behind her in the public gallery, along with two friends.
Some of the parents of the babies who died or were harmed at the Countess of Chester neonatal unit are also in court.
Posted at 10:5010:50
Letby says 'my job was my life'
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby is crying in the witness box.
She says "my job was my life" and "my whole world was stopped".
She is still crying.
Posted at 10:5210:52
'Everything has changed'
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Asked how hard it is to cope "with what you're being accused of", Letby says "everything has changed".
"Everything about me, my hopes for the future, has changed... I've been remanded in prison since November 2020. I've been in four different prisons."
Posted at 10:5310:53
Letby describes moment of arrest
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers asks Lucy Letby about the first time she was arrested.
She says: "There was a loud knocking at the door at six o'clock in the morning. My father was staying with me at that point. He was staying there too."
She is crying and wiping her eyes with tissues.
Letby says she was told she was being arrested on suspicion of the murder and attempted murder of multiple babies, and was taken to the police station in her pyjamas.
When she was released she wasn't allowed to return to Chester. She went to live with her parents in Hereford.
Posted at 10:5610:56
Letby says arrests left her with PTSD
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby says that at her parents home there was loud banging on the door again, and it was the police for a second time.
She says "it was the scariest thing I've ever been through, and it's traumatised me".
She says she is now very sensitive to any noise, any unexpected change. She gets startled. She says she has been diagnosed with PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) in direct relation to the arrests.
When Letby was arrested for the third time she was taken into custody.
She says she makes a three hour round trip to court each day.
Tortoise
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Posted at 11:0111:01
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby's now being asked about notes that were presented as evidence during the trial.
Myers says: "We've all seen a number of notes that you've written. In general are you the sort of person who writes things down?"
Yes, Letby responds, saying she's "the sort of person who writes everything down... and I have difficulties throwing things away".
The court is shown a green note which has been shown before, with Letby's writing on it.
CPS handoutCopyright: CPS handout
This is the note we're looking at in courtImage caption: This is the note we're looking at in court
"Why have you written 'not good enough'?" Myers asks Letby, to which she responds: "Because that's how people had made me feel... I thought I'd been incompetent or done something wrong that had hurt children."
She adds: "It was just me processing my thoughts. It wasn't supposed to be read by anyone."
Court shown note written by Letby
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby's now being asked about notes that were presented as evidence during the trial.
Myers says: "We've all seen a number of notes that you've written. In general are you the sort of person who writes things down?"
Yes, Letby responds, saying she's "the sort of person who writes everything down... and I have difficulties throwing things away".
The court is shown a green note which has been shown before, with Letby's writing on it.
CPS handoutCopyright: CPS handout
This is the note we're looking at in courtImage caption: This is the note we're looking at in court
"Why have you written 'not good enough'?" Myers asks Letby, to which she responds: "Because that's how people had made me feel... I thought I'd been incompetent or done something wrong that had hurt children."
She adds: "It was just me processing my thoughts. It wasn't supposed to be read by anyone."
ColourPurple
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I know. But shes now saying she can't remember exactly when she wrote the "I killed them on purpose" note, and that it coudl be any time from July 2016 to July, 2018.
I was saying if she's saying when she wrote it that she wrote it thinkign that the worst case scenario was that there would be a police investigation, then it had to have been written before there actually was a police investigation!
Letby says she does not have a precise date of when she had written it - between July 2016 and July 2018
Tortoise
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Posted at 11:1011:10
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers asks why the note says "slander, discrimination".
Letby says: "That's what the hospital trust was saying about me. The allegation."
Myers asks: "What kind of mental state were you in when you wrote this note?"
Letby says she was "not good at all" and that "throughout that time my mental health was poor".
Myers asks: "How long were you feeling like this?"
Letby responds: "Two years."
Myers says: "It says 'I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough'... does that mean you did something intentionally to kill them?"
Letby says: "No, it meant that I didn't think I'd been good enough... and had somehow failed in my duties."
NEW
Posted at 11:1411:14
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers is continuing to question Letby about the note, asking about the line "I am evil, I did this".
"Why did you write that?" he asks.
Letby says: "I felt at the time that if I'd done something wrong I must be such an evil, awful person... I'd somehow been incompetent and had done something wrong which had affected those babies."
Myers then asks why she wrote "I did this".
Letby replies: "I felt I must be responsible in some way. I think looking back on it now, I was really struggling, and this was a way of me expressing what I wasn't able to say to anyone else."
Post update
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers asks why the note says "slander, discrimination".
Letby says: "That's what the hospital trust was saying about me. The allegation."
Myers asks: "What kind of mental state were you in when you wrote this note?"
Letby says she was "not good at all" and that "throughout that time my mental health was poor".
Myers asks: "How long were you feeling like this?"
Letby responds: "Two years."
Myers says: "It says 'I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough'... does that mean you did something intentionally to kill them?"
Letby says: "No, it meant that I didn't think I'd been good enough... and had somehow failed in my duties."
NEW
Posted at 11:1411:14
Post update
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers is continuing to question Letby about the note, asking about the line "I am evil, I did this".
"Why did you write that?" he asks.
Letby says: "I felt at the time that if I'd done something wrong I must be such an evil, awful person... I'd somehow been incompetent and had done something wrong which had affected those babies."
Myers then asks why she wrote "I did this".
Letby replies: "I felt I must be responsible in some way. I think looking back on it now, I was really struggling, and this was a way of me expressing what I wasn't able to say to anyone else."
Marantz4250b
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Yes, I think that's what she's getting at, tbh.
Or, perhaps some self loathing that if she thought wasn't competent to do the job, which is what she was being told, that she should have made efforts to change or undergo more training and not doing so and remaining incompetent amounts to essentially the same thing as doing something on purpose in her mind.
MOO, obvs.
ColourPurple
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Nah, still doesn't really answer the question. "Some how failed in my duties" does not equal "I killed them on purpose"
IMO
Tortoise
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11:17
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers, setting out how he'll proceed, tells the jury he'll go through all the general background to Lucy Letby's case, and will then go through all the 17 babies on the indictment with her.
He asks her how she feels as she is being asked about the arrests and the note (see our previous posts), to which she responds: "It's uncomfortable for me. I'm a very private person."
Posted at 11:1911:19
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers now asks Letby how much she valued being a nurse.
Letby responds: "Massively. It was everything and I'd always strive to be the best nurse I could.... I was also a mentor for student nurses at the university".
Letby tells the court that she mentored five or six student nurses during her time at the neonatal unit.
Posted at 11:2011:20
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby is wearing a black suit. She has mid-brown shoulder length hair.
Two female prison officers are sitting alongside her. She's holding her hands underneath the desk of the witness box.
In court there are six barristers (three prosecution, three defence) and other legal staff.
The judge, His Honour Judge Goss, is wearing red and ermine robes.
Lucy Letby’s parents are also in court, and are sitting just behind her in the courtroom.
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers, setting out how he'll proceed, tells the jury he'll go through all the general background to Lucy Letby's case, and will then go through all the 17 babies on the indictment with her.
He asks her how she feels as she is being asked about the arrests and the note (see our previous posts), to which she responds: "It's uncomfortable for me. I'm a very private person."
Posted at 11:1911:19
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Myers now asks Letby how much she valued being a nurse.
Letby responds: "Massively. It was everything and I'd always strive to be the best nurse I could.... I was also a mentor for student nurses at the university".
Letby tells the court that she mentored five or six student nurses during her time at the neonatal unit.
Posted at 11:2011:20
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Lucy Letby is wearing a black suit. She has mid-brown shoulder length hair.
Two female prison officers are sitting alongside her. She's holding her hands underneath the desk of the witness box.
In court there are six barristers (three prosecution, three defence) and other legal staff.
The judge, His Honour Judge Goss, is wearing red and ermine robes.
Lucy Letby’s parents are also in court, and are sitting just behind her in the courtroom.
Tortoise
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Posted at 11:2311:23
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby's now explaining that she had a qualification that enabled her to work with babies in intensive care.
She says "that was predominately what I did".
"I was very flexible to changing shifts and doing overtime, I didn't have a family," she goes on, adding: "I did enjoy intensive care work. I think all nurses on the unit had an area they preferred. No aspect of my work was ever boring."
Judith Moritz
Inside the courtroom
Letby's now explaining that she had a qualification that enabled her to work with babies in intensive care.
She says "that was predominately what I did".
"I was very flexible to changing shifts and doing overtime, I didn't have a family," she goes on, adding: "I did enjoy intensive care work. I think all nurses on the unit had an area they preferred. No aspect of my work was ever boring."
WaxLyrical
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I honestly feel like there are two people on trial here, one who’s guilty and one who’s not guilty.
I’d make a terrible juror.
I hope the CPS has got it right, because if she’s not guilty it doesn’t bear thinking about.
JMO.
I’d make a terrible juror.
I hope the CPS has got it right, because if she’s not guilty it doesn’t bear thinking about.
JMO.
marynnu
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I agree. I'm struggling with the use of 'on purpose'. It can only mean 'deliberately' as far as I'm aware.
ColourPurple
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I can't see where she's even implying that. She just deflects and mentions failing in her duties etc. And because it's the defence questioing her he won't question that further.
Guess we'll have to wait till the prosecution question her properly/in depth.
IMO
Marantz4250b
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I can see how someone who's traumatised by all this might make the link from being incompetent to that essentially equating to doing something on purpose. I mean, if you know or think you're making life changing bad decisions due to some problem you aren't confronting then it's basically the same as doing something on purpose.
If you get drunk, drive home and kill someone then you didn't actually kill them on purpose but it's the same thing, to all intents and purposes.
I can see how someone's mind might go there under these circumstances, tbh.
ColourPurple
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Yes there's no other meaning.
Parker Knoll
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Yep - all deflection and word salad.
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