UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[marynnu]

People were thinking along those lines though. Dr J raised concerns with Stephen B after Baby D, and even the nurses were talking about the deaths as being ‘odd’. Discussions of the strange rash. So I struggle to accept that all the suspicious deaths were just allowed to keep happening while everyone chose to turn a blind eye, especially if, as you say, this activity is unheard of in NNUs. JMO.

It's just not that simple. What were they to do? Just noticing someone's presence when these events took place is not enough. There was no "smoking gun" and it's a massive leap to "think the unthinkable" of a trusted colleague, never mind point the finger. And let's not forget that numerous enquiries took place over that year, all to no avail.

 

[marynnu]

RSBM.

The fact LL was on duty when all the babies died is only circumstantial evidence, and you cannot convict someone solely on that.
It has to be forensically proven that she intentionally killed them.

 

[marynnu]

RSBM.

The fact LL was on duty when all the babies died is only circumstantial evidence, and you cannot convict someone solely on that.
It has to be forensically proven that she intentionally killed them.

Most convictions are not "forensically proven" is my understanding. Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. I'm not sure what else you would expect in a case like this?

 

[Xanadu62]

Something I did find curious was the location of where the notes she scribbled were found. Given she says she never throws anything away, we could assume they were found where they were written.

The large piece of white paper with black and red writing where she referred repeatedly to the Dr, occupational therapist, nursing director and other ramblings like Craig David lyrics was found in her desk at work. It was actually a 2016 holiday request form, not a notebook. And her claim is that her mental health wasn’t good when she wrote it. But I’m unsure how she managed to be sat in a busy office with lots of people around her - scribbling like that with no one noticing she was deteriorating so severely or seeing what she was writing. I can’t fathom how someone could be having the sort of mental breakdown associated with those notes in what was no doubt a small, busy office without much privacy (having seen hospital admin offices before). It wasn’t in a notebook either but an open piece of paper anyone could have seen at any time. She was writing obsessively on it over and over again - and had colleague named. It did make me wonder if she wanted people to see it and ask her if she was ok or notice how upset she was. Felt like a very public display of a breakdown to be writing those notes at work, keeping them in a desk and incriminating other colleagues in her mental health deterioration.

Just reminded me of when I had to discipline a woman I managed for poor performance and she then went off on sick leave for depression, came back to work and told everyone who’d listen I had been the cause. HR then investigated me, luckily I had followed all due process and she was a poor performer but she managed to make a miserable few weeks for me.

Similarly if her notes had been found, it could pose uncomfortable questions of those she listed in that note. As it turns out, it’s been a gift for her defence to be able to evidence her unstable/fragile mental state at the time without needing medical validation of anything more than depression from only a GP, not a specialist. Which in the UK is not a difficult diagnosis to get.

Similarly with the notes found in her work and going out socially bag - some made sense (blue ones with info on her disciplinary) but the others with bday greetings to the baby, love/hate colleagues, suicidal thoughts etc - where was she writing them? Not at home as why would they be in her bags. At work again? When out socially? Was she taking them somewhere? There’s no mention of a therapist or counsellor. I always assumed all the notes were written in the privacy of her home so their potentially public locations have surprised me.

My own opinion.

 

[JosieJo]

Something I did find curious was the location of where the notes she scribbled were found. Given she says she never throws anything away, we could assume they were found where they were written.

The large piece of white paper with black and red writing where she referred repeatedly to the Dr, occupational therapist, nursing director and other ramblings like Craig David lyrics was found in her desk at work. It was actually a 2016 holiday request form, not a notebook. And her claim is that her mental health wasn’t good when she wrote it. But I’m unsure how she managed to be sat in a busy office with lots of people around her - scribbling like that with no one noticing she was deteriorating so severely or seeing what she was writing. I can’t fathom how someone could be having the sort of mental breakdown associated with those notes in what was no doubt a small, busy office without much privacy (having seen hospital admin offices before). It wasn’t in a notebook either but an open piece of paper anyone could have seen at any time. She was writing obsessively on it over and over again - and had colleague named. It did make me wonder if she wanted people to see it and ask her if she was ok or notice how upset she was. Felt like a very public display of a breakdown to be writing those notes at work, keeping them in a desk and incriminating other colleagues in her mental health deterioration.

Just reminded me of when I had to discipline a woman I managed for poor performance and she then went off on sick leave for depression, came back to work and told everyone who’d listen I had been the cause. HR then investigated me, luckily I had followed all due process and she was a poor performer but she managed to make a miserable few weeks for me.

Similarly if her notes had been found, it could pose uncomfortable questions of those she listed in that note. As it turns out, it’s been a gift for her defence to be able to evidence her unstable/fragile mental state at the time without needing medical validation of anything more than depression from only a GP, not a specialist. Which in the UK is not a difficult diagnosis to get.

Similarly with the notes found in her work and going out socially bag - some made sense (blue ones with info on her disciplinary) but the others with bday greetings to the baby, love/hate colleagues, suicidal thoughts etc - where was she writing them? Not at home as why would they be in her bags. At work again? When out socially? Was she taking them somewhere? There’s no mention of a therapist or counsellor. I always assumed all the notes were written in the privacy of her home so their potentially public locations have surprised me.

Interesting thank you

 

[katydid23]

Something I did find curious was the location of where the notes she scribbled were found. Given she says she never throws anything away, we could assume they were found where they were written.

The large piece of white paper with black and red writing where she referred repeatedly to the Dr, occupational therapist, nursing director and other ramblings like Craig David lyrics was found in her desk at work. It was actually a 2016 holiday request form, not a notebook. And her claim is that her mental health wasn’t good when she wrote it. But I’m unsure how she managed to be sat in a busy office with lots of people around her - scribbling like that with no one noticing she was deteriorating so severely or seeing what she was writing. I can’t fathom how someone could be having the sort of mental breakdown associated with those notes in what was no doubt a small, busy office without much privacy (having seen hospital admin offices before). It wasn’t in a notebook either but an open piece of paper anyone could have seen at any time. She was writing obsessively on it over and over again - and had colleague named. It did make me wonder if she wanted people to see it and ask her if she was ok or notice how upset she was. Felt like a very public display of a breakdown to be writing those notes at work, keeping them in a desk and incriminating other colleagues in her mental health deterioration.

Just reminded me of when I had to discipline a woman I managed for poor performance and she then went off on sick leave for depression, came back to work and told everyone who’d listen I had been the cause. HR then investigated me, luckily I had followed all due process and she was a poor performer but she managed to make a miserable few weeks for me.

Similarly if her notes had been found, it could pose uncomfortable questions of those she listed in that note. As it turns out, it’s been a gift for her defence to be able to evidence her unstable/fragile mental state at the time without needing medical validation of anything more than depression from only a GP, not a specialist. Which in the UK is not a difficult diagnosis to get.

Similarly with the notes found in her work and going out socially bag - some made sense (blue ones with info on her disciplinary) but the others with bday greetings to the baby, love/hate colleagues, suicidal thoughts etc - where was she writing them? Not at home as why would they be in her bags. At work again? When out socially? Was she taking them somewhere? There’s no mention of a therapist or counsellor. I always assumed all the notes were written in the privacy of her home so their potentially public locations have surprised me.

I wonder if that office where they found the note was the the department she was moved to after she was taken out of NICU? [ Patient Safety or ?]

I don't think she had an office in the Neo-natal unit, did she? If so, she would have had to clear it out when she was taken off the floor. So she must have been writing that note during her secondment ?

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

RSBM.

The fact LL was on duty when all the babies died is only circumstantial evidence, and you cannot convict someone solely on that.
It has to be forensically proven that she intentionally killed them.

What? Yes you absolutely can convict on circumstantial evidence.

For example: If you can prove that the accused was in the park where someone was stabbed, had access to the knife used in the crime, and also the victim was someone they hated then yes you can add those facts together and convict based on that. Despite it being 'circumstantial'

Most criminal convictions are based on circumstantial evidence

 

[Xanadu62]

I wonder if that office where they found the note was the the department she was moved to after she was taken out of NICU? [ Patient Safety or ?]

I don't think she had an office in the Neo-natal unit, did she? If so, she would have had to clear it out when she was taken off the floor. So she must have been writing that note during her secondment ?

Yes, it must have been the unit she was redeployed to. As she said that’s when her mental health problems began and the note is mentioning occupational health. It wouldn’t have been a private office but one she shared desks and space with others. Hospital offices are normally small and busy. No cubicles, it would likely be open plan. Obviously haven’t seen photos of this particular office but having seeing others at CoCH, they are not small or private.

And since it was all same hospital, some names would likely be familiar or they’d know which unit she had come from, even on her secondment unit.

MOO.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Ok, Wax,
Help me here. On one hand you are complaining that the hospital ' allowed this to go on as long as it did'------Suggesting they should have legally shut LL down much sooner.

But then you also say that maybe "... we have a bunch of the worst coincidences imaginable in respect of a competent nurse who threw herself head first into caring for intensive care babies."

So which is it? Is the hospital wrong for not seeing LL as a dangerous person who needed to be removed? Or is LE wrong for bringing these charges against her?

It is a difficult situation for sure. But I think they absolutely had to bring her to trial to sort this out. JMO

Honestly I just look at everything from both perspectives, innocent and guilty. I said at the start of this I would not make any conclusions myself until I’d heard both sides make their case, and I’m just being honest about the things that are going through my head and adding to the conversation.

Either way, the hospital made unforgivable errors. I cannot accept them failing to spot the insulin poisonings, especially when the lab called it out specifically. In fact, it seems to be many years before they did, despite reviews, enquiries, and then the police investigation. It causes me doubt in the competency of the investigation, and whether their retrospective investigations were too focused on achieving a specific outcome (air) based on what Dr J alleged.

I’ve never suggested she should not have been arrested or brought to trial, I am accepting that the test was met

 

[ShireChe]

YES. It seems that some are ignoring the known facts, some even agreed upon by the defense already.

Some seem to think we are reacting solely to the FB searches, handovers and the shredder controversy, to make our minds up about guilt or innocence. There has been many months of medical evidence and logistical data given already that set the scene and build the case. JMO

Now I want to hear the defense case and how they rebut the suspicious circumstances that have me concerned.

This is going to be the key to the case. The diaries, notes, handover sheets can be debated forever in terms of what they meant/didn't mean but we have expert witnesses stating that the babies were killed by foul means.

In my opinion, the defence need to give a compelling reason/alternative or indeed have expert witnesses of their own to counter it.

 

[JosieJo]

Honestly I just look at everything from both perspectives, innocent and guilty. I said at the start of this I would not make any conclusions myself until I’d heard both sides make their case, and I’m just being honest about the things that are going through my head and adding to the conversation.

Either way, the hospital made unforgivable errors. I cannot accept them failing to spot the insulin poisonings, especially when the lab called it out specifically. In fact, it seems to be many years before they did, despite reviews, enquiries, and then the police investigation. It causes me doubt in the competency of the investigation, and whether their retrospective investigations were too focused on achieving a specific outcome (air) based on what Dr J alleged.

I’ve never suggested she should not have been arrested or brought to trial, I am accepting that the test was met

It is very difficult imo to forgive or put to one side the failings to react more quickly by the hospital and prevent the latter deaths ...but I do think its important..to me anyway we are all different..to put those emotions to one side as its not the hospital on trial.
To me unless the defence can substantially put to bed the conclusions of the expert medical witness saying these deaths were caused deliberately...which I'm open to but would be very suprised..unfortunately any hospital failings are not relevant and should be subject to their own investigation..jmo

 

[Dotta]

Re: her daily bag

I really don't get why she carried her uniform, shoes(!), etc. to and fro from hospital to home and vice versa.

Don't staff have lockers?

Besides, aren't scrubs usually put into hospital washing machines with strong detergents to kill any kinds of germs?

My friend who works in hospital leaves scrubs there to be washed and is given fresh ones every morning.

And yet, I hear she carried this Ibiza bag with:
- uniform
- shoes
- lunch!!!!
And handover sheets to top it all

Did she ever clean this bag??
Yuck!

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Court shown card Lucy Letby wrote to parents of baby she 'murdered'

Lucy Letby wrote a letter to the parents of a baby girl she is accused or murdering, telling them 'there are no words to make this any easier,' her trial heard. The note was shown in court.

www.dailymail.co.uk

She said she had written the expression 'Not good enough' because 'that's the overwhelming thought I had about myself at the time, because of the way people had made me feel'.

Mr Myers asked whether she had done anything wrong ' to hurt any babies'.

'No,' she told him. She felt an immense sense of responsibility, that she might have been 'incompetent or done something wrong that had harmed children'.

snipped

In another note Letby had written 'I'm an awful person. I pay every day for that right now'.

She explained: 'At that time I did feel I must have been awful - to have made any mistakes. I'd been taken away from the job I loved and accused of things I just hadn't done'.

snipped

In a further note Letby writes the word HATE in capital letters. 'At the time I did hate myself because I was made to feel I had done something wrong – that I had done something incompetent'.

Mr Myers referred her to a note in which Letby wrote: 'I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them and I'm a horrible evil person'.

She insisted it did not mean she had killed them, but that she had 'somehow failed in my duties, in my competencies'.


snipped

Elsewhere on a crowded sheet of paper Letby writes the phrase: 'I'm evil. I did this'. Again she explained: 'I felt that if I'd done something wrong I must be such an awful, evil person that I'd made some mistakes and not known'.

At one point Letby writes 'Why me?' She told Mr Myers that at the time she didn't understand 'why it was happening to me'. Until that point she had always felt competent and that 'I'd always done my best'.

Her job as a nurse had been everything to her. It was massive. 'I always strived to go on every course that I could so I could be the best I could'.

She said she had written the notes at a time she was 'really struggling'.

 

[katydid23]

Honestly I just look at everything from both perspectives, innocent and guilty. I said at the start of this I would not make any conclusions myself until I’d heard both sides make their case, and I’m just being honest about the things that are going through my head and adding to the conversation.

Either way, the hospital made unforgivable errors. I cannot accept them failing to spot the insulin poisonings, especially when the lab called it out specifically. In fact, it seems to be many years before they did, despite reviews, enquiries, and then the police investigation. It causes me doubt in the competency of the investigation, and whether their retrospective investigations were too focused on achieving a specific outcome (air) based on what Dr J alleged.

I’ve never suggested she should not have been arrested or brought to trial, I am accepting that the test was met

The people at the hospital who did not recognize the insulin poisonings at first are NOT the same people who led the later investigations into the deaths and collapses.

I do not believe the investigation was focused upon proving what Dr J was alleging. Dr Evans did not know anything about those allegations at all. He was asked to sort out what he believed happened medically. It was not about LL at all at that time.

So you are agreeing there was probable cause for her to be brought to trial? But you are wondering if it was just a matter of coincidences and bad luck for the defendant?

 

[Tortoise]

Honestly I just look at everything from both perspectives, innocent and guilty. I said at the start of this I would not make any conclusions myself until I’d heard both sides make their case, and I’m just being honest about the things that are going through my head and adding to the conversation.

Either way, the hospital made unforgivable errors. I cannot accept them failing to spot the insulin poisonings, especially when the lab called it out specifically. In fact, it seems to be many years before they did, despite reviews, enquiries, and then the police investigation. It causes me doubt in the competency of the investigation, and whether their retrospective investigations were too focused on achieving a specific outcome (air) based on what Dr J alleged.

I’ve never suggested she should not have been arrested or brought to trial, I am accepting that the test was met

There has been no testimony that investigations were focused on specific allegations of air.

Dr Evans:

"Somehow air had got into the circulation...I found this opinion without knowing about the rash and without anybody suggesting expressing concern of air embolus."


Dr Evans said he was tasked with investigating a "clinical condition", not a "crime", when he became aware of the Countess of Chester Hospital case, when tasked by the National Crime Agency.

"My state of mind was very clear - let's find a diagnosis. Nothing to do with crime. Let's identify any specific collapse, and see if I can explain it.

He said: "The name Lucy Letby meant nothing to me. I didn't know the staff.

"I was the easiest physician and the most difficult. I was a blank sheet of paper. I had no idea and relied entirely on the evidence I could see from the clinical notes and applying my clinical experience and forming an opinion to the cause."

Mr Myers: "Was the phrase 'air embolus' used at all?"
Dr Evans: "No. The first person to use air embolus, as far as I was concerned, was me.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, October 25

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

And edited to say he wasn't just passed the cases with these outcomes, he was passed details of 33 cases/collapses/incidents. So it cannot be said the hospital was selective over the investigation.

 

[Parker Knoll]

This sums this case up perfectly for me ( nor my original words )
There is so much evidence. It’s taken 6 months for the prosecution. None of the babies were expected to die (I’d only exclude poor baby K possibly) or have life threatening problems out of nowhere.
There are mountains of records to show they were on upward trends with health, that their stats, gasses obs were all ok - they all have to be wrong. Mountains of evidence from witnesses at the hosp ranging from parents, consultants, medics from different hospitals, all explaining that the responses to resus were insane, they’ve never seen things like it before or since, they were shocked, their babies went repeatedly from stable to deaths door, lots of the time it’s when they’ve just decided to go home or get food. Every single one was a shock and unexpected. They have compelling forensic evidence of large amounts of air. Where it’s there in veins, she has just accessed veins. There’s a large bubble of air by baby D’s catheter. There is a line of air down the spine to the rectum. Air comparable with car crashes and overwhelming infection. Where babies were fed by Letby, their stomachs and bowels are inflated like balloons. CPAP doesn’t kill 33 week old 4lb babies on low setting after a couple of days. It doesn’t happen. Or there would be dead babies up and down the country. Prem babies life expectancy would be horrendous.
A lot of the babies had an over 90% chance of survival and would still have been treated at CoCH after the downgrade. So then we’re into possibility vs probability. Even if you want to believe that (and it’s not an insult it’s a fact that if you think Letby is innocent it’s all chance) this is pure coincidence even related to Letby working overtime, you surely have to accept that this all down to her bad luck is really really slim. Her colleagues found it shocking it was all happening to her. She didn’t seem to worry until the very end.
I have seen absolutely nobody explain the triplets deaths? Or what conceivable innocent scenario there is for the insulin? Even if you’d like to say
Letby herself incompetently gave insulin at a lethal dose, inappropriately and without a prescription… this isn’t just negligence, she asks for constant updates about the baby’s hypo all day and night. Nobody did that by accident. It’s not possible and it’s not claimed by defence. The next dose was higher. Someone wanted to finish the job. If you think it could have been the shift leader, who is still a senior neonatal lead, quite frankly that’s on a par with swastika gardens imo!
You’re totally right about the sheets and the Facebook searches, they’re far more easy to explain away although personally I absolutely cannot! Especially when these things are incredibly common in cases of healthcare serial killers.
I find it totally mind boggling that someone could be more compelled by Letby’s waterworks and her saying it’s just normal for her to search people and just had no idea she had hundreds of illegal docs and was just so so upset when she tucked her I’m evil note into her diary.. than all the evidence we’ve heard that these babies were killed.
I would really like to know.. if people are able to accept that these babies were killed or harmed by air embolism, or even if there was a hypothetical case of babies being killed by air embolism, what evidence would you expect to see that is not in this case?
- fleeting embolism rashes
- pale and unusual mottling
- unusual and inexplicable air at PM
- pain, screaming, signs of discomfort
- breathing and chest wall moving but heart stopping
- strange responses to resus - as if something has passed through and begin to breathe again.
-poor outcomes, death, brain damage
- sudden deterioration
- no soft signs of infection, on antibiotics, recovering
- prominent veins
- one person having accessed circulation or been found alone with the patient before the event.
- one person frequently around the collapses

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Some of the Facebook searches are starting to feel less significant to me.

I must admit, I’m terrible for being nosey on facebook, I’ll randomly think of someone I went to school with that I haven’t thought of for years and I’ll search for them, find their page and realise they’re married with 4 kids. I must also be a weirdo because if my friend tells me someone’s sister, mother, child has passed away I’ll search them up and look at their posts, it always makes me feel really sorry for them like I want to tell them I’m sorry and send my thoughts but I don’t because it’s inappropriate Imo to add someone randomly when they’ve been through something like that. Another example would be seeing an article that an old school friends boyfriend has been arrested and I’ll go snooping to see if she’s wrote anything about it.

Something else I do if I’m following a case on here be it a missing person or murder, I’ll Facebook search the victim or suspect. Even though I’m in the UK and they’re in Texas or something sometimes I’ll go right back through their posts to 2007 thinking wow they had absolutely no idea their life would be cut short etc things like that. 3 hours later I’m looking at a randomer’s photos who lives 3000 miles away. I’m nosey I like to look at peoples houses too and see what their decor is like. Or I’ll watch a true crime documentary and search for the people involved and see how they’re doing now. I never comment or add or anything like that. I just like reading about other people’s lives.

I’m not a nurse looking for patients or searching purposely for victims families on Christmas Day and anniversaries though, that’s what I find odd.

That makes me sound like a complete psycho please tell me others do this too from time to time

 

[WaxLyrical]

The people at the hospital who did not recognize the insulin poisonings at first are NOT the same people who led the later investigations into the deaths and collapses.

I do not believe the investigation was focused upon proving what Dr J was alleging. Dr Evans did not know anything about those allegations at all. He was asked to sort out what he believed happened medically. It was not about LL at all at that time.

So you are agreeing there was probable cause for her to be brought to trial? But you are wondering if it was just a matter of coincidences and bad luck for the defendant?

I literally said I find the prosecution case compelling but there is a seed of doubt niggling away at me, and I tried to articulate what that was, although it looks like I failed.

 

[Dotta]

Something I did find curious was the location of where the notes she scribbled were found. Given she says she never throws anything away, we could assume they were found where they were written.

The large piece of white paper with black and red writing where she referred repeatedly to the Dr, occupational therapist, nursing director and other ramblings like Craig David lyrics was found in her desk at work. It was actually a 2016 holiday request form, not a notebook. And her claim is that her mental health wasn’t good when she wrote it. But I’m unsure how she managed to be sat in a busy office with lots of people around her - scribbling like that with no one noticing she was deteriorating so severely or seeing what she was writing. I can’t fathom how someone could be having the sort of mental breakdown associated with those notes in what was no doubt a small, busy office without much privacy (having seen hospital admin offices before). It wasn’t in a notebook either but an open piece of paper anyone could have seen at any time. She was writing obsessively on it over and over again - and had colleague named. It did make me wonder if she wanted people to see it and ask her if she was ok or notice how upset she was. Felt like a very public display of a breakdown to be writing those notes at work, keeping them in a desk and incriminating other colleagues in her mental health deterioration.

Just reminded me of when I had to discipline a woman I managed for poor performance and she then went off on sick leave for depression, came back to work and told everyone who’d listen I had been the cause. HR then investigated me, luckily I had followed all due process and she was a poor performer but she managed to make a miserable few weeks for me.

Similarly if her notes had been found, it could pose uncomfortable questions of those she listed in that note. As it turns out, it’s been a gift for her defence to be able to evidence her unstable/fragile mental state at the time without needing medical validation of anything more than depression from only a GP, not a specialist. Which in the UK is not a difficult diagnosis to get.

Similarly with the notes found in her work and going out socially bag - some made sense (blue ones with info on her disciplinary) but the others with bday greetings to the baby, love/hate colleagues, suicidal thoughts etc - where was she writing them? Not at home as why would they be in her bags. At work again? When out socially? Was she taking them somewhere? There’s no mention of a therapist or counsellor. I always assumed all the notes were written in the privacy of her home so their potentially public locations have surprised me.

My own opinion.

I wondered about this too.
I pictured her in this "Safety...." office sitting with grumpy face (feeling as if in exile).

Im curious what exactly did she do there except
writing bizarre A4 notes, letters of grievance and leave permission?

I also wonder how workers there perceived her.
Didn't she herself say she "hated being there"?
But hey, the salaries were still coming.

JMO

 

[Mandalas]

Some of the Facebook searches are starting to feel less significant to me.

I must admit, I’m terrible for being nosey on facebook, I’ll randomly think of someone I went to school with that I haven’t thought of for years and I’ll search for them, find their page and realise they’re married with 4 kids. I must also be a weirdo because if my friend tells me someone’s sister, mother, child has passed away I’ll search them up and look at their posts, it always makes me feel really sorry for them like I want to tell them I’m sorry and send my thoughts but I don’t because it’s inappropriate Imo to add someone randomly when they’ve been through something like that. Another example would be seeing an article that an old school friends boyfriend has been arrested and I’ll go snooping to see if she’s wrote anything about it.

Something else I do if I’m following a case on here be it a missing person or murder, I’ll Facebook search the victim or suspect. Even though I’m in the UK and they’re in Texas or something sometimes I’ll go right back through their posts to 2007 thinking wow they had absolutely no idea their life would be cut short etc things like that. 3 hours later I’m looking at a randomer’s photos who lives 3000 miles away. I’m nosey I like to look at peoples houses too and see what their decor is like. Or I’ll watch a true crime documentary and search for the people involved and see how they’re doing now. I never comment or add or anything like that. I just like reading about other people’s lives.

I’m not a nurse looking for patients or searching purposely for victims families on Christmas Day and anniversaries though, that’s what I find odd.

That makes me sound like a complete psycho please tell me others do this too from time to time

I'm just chipping in here to try to put you at ease (haven't yet commented on this case, just forum loitering, as I've not been following it until recently).

IMO what you describe is perfectly normal, natural human curiosity, perhaps fuelled somewhat by the ease of access to information about others we now have with social media etc. It could of course become unhealthy or compulsive; only the individual concerned, close observer or a professional could make that judgement.

We all have a innate curiosity about something (see Cognitive Scientist Elizabeth Bonawitz's work on this), it's part of our survival make up as a species. In your case, I see that you are studying psychology and so presumably have an intrinsic motivation to understand people, what they are about, how they feel, why they do the things they do (or conversely, why they don't). A senior forensic psychologist once described it to me as a type of voyeurism, almost, but it is made up of the same stuff that makes us want to understand the world (and ultimately ourselves).

Often we are compelled to research something as an unconscious extension of our need to understand ourselves and human nature more generally. In fact, I imagine it is not only psychologists that do this, but anyone interested in people generally whether they work in criminal justice, social care, education etc etc. Even in my writing of this response to your open and honest comment, I am wondering am I attempting to justify my own habits of curiosity in relation to others, loitering on Websleuths being one habit for a start!

Just my opinion of course, but I think it is perfectly natural and normal behaviour for people who are curious about human behaviour.

In terms of this case, I do not believe the social media searches in and of themselves by LL are anything to be concerned about. It is the timing of them and the combination of these along with the other evidence/patterns which is concerning. In my view, the searches indicate LL's deep level of interest, whether that is a reflection of her passion/inner drivers as a practising nurse, or something more sinister linked to the prospect of guilt, culpability or the need to be discovered. MOO.