UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[Marantz4250b]

Something else I do if I’m following a case on here be it a missing person or murder, I’ll Facebook search the victim or suspect. Even though I’m in the UK and they’re in Texas or something sometimes I’ll go right back through their posts to 2007 thinking wow they had absolutely no idea their life would be cut short etc things like that. 3 hours later I’m looking at a randomer’s photos who lives 3000 miles away. I’m nosey I like to look at peoples houses too and see what their decor is like. Or I’ll watch a true crime documentary and search for the people involved and see how they’re doing now. I never comment or add or anything like that. I just like reading about other people’s lives.

I do that very occasionally.

What I'm a right weirdo about, though, is if there's ever an old TV programme (Bergerac, for instance, Edge of Darkness has recently been on) I'll go on the DVLA website to see if any of the old cars, bikes, busses, etc are still on the road.

In fact, there's a very famous murder from the 60's round these parts (my family knew all involved including the dead guy) of which one of the cars is still around. I recall reading an article about the current owner who had no idea it was associated until someone told him. I must see if there's a WS thread on it!

 

[ColourPurple]

This sums this case up perfectly for me ( nor my original words )
There is so much evidence. It’s taken 6 months for the prosecution. None of the babies were expected to die (I’d only exclude poor baby K possibly) or have life threatening problems out of nowhere.
There are mountains of records to show they were on upward trends with health, that their stats, gasses obs were all ok - they all have to be wrong. Mountains of evidence from witnesses at the hosp ranging from parents, consultants, medics from different hospitals, all explaining that the responses to resus were insane, they’ve never seen things like it before or since, they were shocked, their babies went repeatedly from stable to deaths door, lots of the time it’s when they’ve just decided to go home or get food. Every single one was a shock and unexpected. They have compelling forensic evidence of large amounts of air. Where it’s there in veins, she has just accessed veins. There’s a large bubble of air by baby D’s catheter. There is a line of air down the spine to the rectum. Air comparable with car crashes and overwhelming infection. Where babies were fed by Letby, their stomachs and bowels are inflated like balloons. CPAP doesn’t kill 33 week old 4lb babies on low setting after a couple of days. It doesn’t happen. Or there would be dead babies up and down the country. Prem babies life expectancy would be horrendous.
A lot of the babies had an over 90% chance of survival and would still have been treated at CoCH after the downgrade. So then we’re into possibility vs probability. Even if you want to believe that (and it’s not an insult it’s a fact that if you think Letby is innocent it’s all chance) this is pure coincidence even related to Letby working overtime, you surely have to accept that this all down to her bad luck is really really slim. Her colleagues found it shocking it was all happening to her. She didn’t seem to worry until the very end.
I have seen absolutely nobody explain the triplets deaths? Or what conceivable innocent scenario there is for the insulin? Even if you’d like to say
Letby herself incompetently gave insulin at a lethal dose, inappropriately and without a prescription… this isn’t just negligence, she asks for constant updates about the baby’s hypo all day and night. Nobody did that by accident. It’s not possible and it’s not claimed by defence. The next dose was higher. Someone wanted to finish the job. If you think it could have been the shift leader, who is still a senior neonatal lead, quite frankly that’s on a par with swastika gardens imo!
You’re totally right about the sheets and the Facebook searches, they’re far more easy to explain away although personally I absolutely cannot! Especially when these things are incredibly common in cases of healthcare serial killers.
I find it totally mind boggling that someone could be more compelled by Letby’s waterworks and her saying it’s just normal for her to search people and just had no idea she had hundreds of illegal docs and was just so so upset when she tucked her I’m evil note into her diary.. than all the evidence we’ve heard that these babies were killed.
I would really like to know.. if people are able to accept that these babies were killed or harmed by air embolism, or even if there was a hypothetical case of babies being killed by air embolism, what evidence would you expect to see that is not in this case?
- fleeting embolism rashes
- pale and unusual mottling
- unusual and inexplicable air at PM
- pain, screaming, signs of discomfort
- breathing and chest wall moving but heart stopping
- strange responses to resus - as if something has passed through and begin to breathe again.
-poor outcomes, death, brain damage
- sudden deterioration
- no soft signs of infection, on antibiotics, recovering
- prominent veins
- one person having accessed circulation or been found alone with the patient before the event.
- one person frequently around the collapses

IMO

Yup, and we've just heard over 6 months of medical and other evidence. If the only evidence was facebook searches and handover notes, LL would not be in the dock. Even if there were no handover notes or facebook searches she would still be in the dock. So to try to determine her guilt or innocence based on those two aspects alone is futile. IMO

All JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
22h

Ms Letby is asked about colleagues at the hospital, she lists a number of people she was friends with on the unit. She is asked about one doctor in particular, who cannot be named for legal reasons

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
22h

Ms Letby said the pair would go for walks, meals, coffees together and he would sometimes come to her house - she said he was a 'trusted friend', but said it wasn't anything more than a friendship

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
22h

The doctor moved to another hospital in 2016 and Ms Letby said they they stayed in touch until 2018, when the friendship 'fizzled out'


--

partial transcript from podcast puts her written notes on the back of the holiday request form in 2018, most likely


"Jurors were told that Lucy Letby’s desk at the hospital was also searched in July 2018 following her first arrest. Inside a blue folder officers found a holiday request form dated September 1st 2017 which was covered in loveheart doodles. Dr A’s name had been written repeatedly alongside a series of jumbled words and phrases. These included “love I trusted you with everything. One day I won’t think of you anymore. Please help me”. Other phrases scrawled on the form were “I just want life to be as it was” “I really can’t do this anymore” “I want to be happy in the job that I loved” “this situation could have been avoided. It needn’t have ever come to this”."

The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 29, Arrested

 

[ColourPurple]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
22h

Ms Letby is asked about colleagues at the hospital, she lists a number of people she was friends with on the unit. She is asked about one doctor in particular, who cannot be named for legal reasons

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
22h

Ms Letby said the pair would go for walks, meals, coffees together and he would sometimes come to her house - she said he was a 'trusted friend', but said it wasn't anything more than a friendship

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
22h

The doctor moved to another hospital in 2016 and Ms Letby said they they stayed in touch until 2018, when the friendship 'fizzled out'

There was another quote where she said he'd been at the hospital since September 2015, so a bit earleir than we'd thought.

 

[LokiMissChief]

I remember reading that Lucy had altered some medical entries etc after the fact but I can’t remember where I read this / which baby it related to, can anyone remember?

 

[Tortoise]

There was another quote where she said he'd been at the hospital since September 2015, so a bit earleir than we'd thought.

I've got 2015 in the Chester Standard updates, but I haven't seen September referenced, not that I've read all the write ups.

"He started in 2015 as a registrar, Letby explains. They started knowing each other through work, then would meet socially.

"Was it a friendship?"

"Yes."

"Was it anything more?"

"No."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ColourPurple]

I've got 2015 in the Chester Standard updates, but I haven't seen September referenced, not that I've read all the write ups.

"He started in 2015 as a registrar, Letby explains. They started knowing each other through work, then would meet socially.

"Was it a friendship?"

"Yes."

"Was it anything more?"

"No."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Asked specifically about the registrar, she said he had started working at the unit around September 2015.

She had got to know him 'just through working together', but later began meeting him socially.

Mr Myers asked whether he was anything more than a friend? 'No, she said. But she then agreed it was a 'close' friendship.

She went on: 'He was a trusted friend, yes. Sometimes he would come to my house. Sometimes we would go out for a meal or coffee, or walks'.

He had left the Countess of Chester Hospital in the autumn of 2016 and their friendship had 'sort of fizzled out'. He was now a consultant elsewhere in the country.

Court shown card Lucy Letby wrote to parents of baby she 'murdered'

Lucy Letby wrote a letter to the parents of a baby girl she is accused or murdering, telling them 'there are no words to make this any easier,' her trial heard. The note was shown in court.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

edited to say he wasn't just passed the cases with these outcomes, he was passed details of 33 cases/collapses/incidents. So it cannot be said the hospital was selective over the investigation.

Exactly this.
Tortoise, in passing, could I please ask if you can recall what timespan the 33 cases covered? I have in my head March 2015 as the start date, but I can't find this anywhere so might be making it up! Thanks. x

 

[Kittybunny]

This sums this case up perfectly for me ( nor my original words )
There is so much evidence. It’s taken 6 months for the prosecution. None of the babies were expected to die (I’d only exclude poor baby K possibly) or have life threatening problems out of nowhere.
There are mountains of records to show they were on upward trends with health, that their stats, gasses obs were all ok - they all have to be wrong. Mountains of evidence from witnesses at the hosp ranging from parents, consultants, medics from different hospitals, all explaining that the responses to resus were insane, they’ve never seen things like it before or since, they were shocked, their babies went repeatedly from stable to deaths door, lots of the time it’s when they’ve just decided to go home or get food. Every single one was a shock and unexpected. They have compelling forensic evidence of large amounts of air. Where it’s there in veins, she has just accessed veins. There’s a large bubble of air by baby D’s catheter. There is a line of air down the spine to the rectum. Air comparable with car crashes and overwhelming infection. Where babies were fed by Letby, their stomachs and bowels are inflated like balloons. CPAP doesn’t kill 33 week old 4lb babies on low setting after a couple of days. It doesn’t happen. Or there would be dead babies up and down the country. Prem babies life expectancy would be horrendous.
A lot of the babies had an over 90% chance of survival and would still have been treated at CoCH after the downgrade. So then we’re into possibility vs probability. Even if you want to believe that (and it’s not an insult it’s a fact that if you think Letby is innocent it’s all chance) this is pure coincidence even related to Letby working overtime, you surely have to accept that this all down to her bad luck is really really slim. Her colleagues found it shocking it was all happening to her. She didn’t seem to worry until the very end.
I have seen absolutely nobody explain the triplets deaths? Or what conceivable innocent scenario there is for the insulin? Even if you’d like to say
Letby herself incompetently gave insulin at a lethal dose, inappropriately and without a prescription… this isn’t just negligence, she asks for constant updates about the baby’s hypo all day and night. Nobody did that by accident. It’s not possible and it’s not claimed by defence. The next dose was higher. Someone wanted to finish the job. If you think it could have been the shift leader, who is still a senior neonatal lead, quite frankly that’s on a par with swastika gardens imo!
You’re totally right about the sheets and the Facebook searches, they’re far more easy to explain away although personally I absolutely cannot! Especially when these things are incredibly common in cases of healthcare serial killers.
I find it totally mind boggling that someone could be more compelled by Letby’s waterworks and her saying it’s just normal for her to search people and just had no idea she had hundreds of illegal docs and was just so so upset when she tucked her I’m evil note into her diary.. than all the evidence we’ve heard that these babies were killed.
I would really like to know.. if people are able to accept that these babies were killed or harmed by air embolism, or even if there was a hypothetical case of babies being killed by air embolism, what evidence would you expect to see that is not in this case?
- fleeting embolism rashes
- pale and unusual mottling
- unusual and inexplicable air at PM
- pain, screaming, signs of discomfort
- breathing and chest wall moving but heart stopping
- strange responses to resus - as if something has passed through and begin to breathe again.
-poor outcomes, death, brain damage
- sudden deterioration
- no soft signs of infection, on antibiotics, recovering
- prominent veins
- one person having accessed circulation or been found alone with the patient before the event.
- one person frequently around the collapses

So well summarized - 100 percent agree! The big picture is quite telling.

 

[marynnu]

Re: her daily bag

I really don't get why she carried her uniform, shoes(!), etc. to and fro from hospital to home and vice versa.

Don't staff have lockers?

Besides, aren't scrubs usually put into hospital washing machines with strong detergents to kill any kinds of germs?

My friend who works in hospital leaves scrubs there to be washed and is given fresh ones every morning.

And yet, I hear she carried this Ibiza bag with:
- uniform
- shoes
- lunch!!!!
And handover sheets to top it all

Did she ever clean this bag??
Yuck!

JMO

It's perfectly normal to carry uniforms/scrubs home and wash them yourself. Less so the shoes perhaps!

 

[ColourPurple]

Just listening to the laterst podcast from Monday. She is absolutely adamant that the "Not Good Enough" was written in July 2016, shortly after being moved to admin. They even ask why she mentioned a police investigation at that stage.

The prosecution will definitely hone in on this in their questioing now that shes changed the timing of that note to anytime from July 2016- July 2018
,

The Trial

Listen to Daily Mail’s The Trial podcast with Liz Hull and Caroline Cheetham on Apple Podcasts.

podcasts.apple.com

 

[WaxLyrical]

Just listening to the laterst podcast from Tuesday. She is absolutely adamant that the "Not Good Enough" was written in July 2016, shortly after being moved to admin. They even ask why she mentioned a police investigation at that stage.

The prosecution will definitely hone in on this in their questioing now that shes changed the timing of that note to anytime from July 2016- July 2018
,

The Trial

Listen to Daily Mail’s The Trial podcast with Liz Hull and Caroline Cheetham on Apple Podcasts.

podcasts.apple.com

It makes sense for it to have been written in 2016, since it was found in the 2016 diary. I personally don’t think it’s likely that note would have found its way in there if written at a later date. JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

Exactly this.
Tortoise, in passing, could I please ask if you can recall what timespan the 33 cases covered? I have in my head March 2015 as the start date, but I can't find this anywhere so might be making it up! Thanks. x

I don't think it's been stated in the trial.

By her second arrest they were saying from March 2015 in the papers but I seem to remember they expanded it to Jan 2015 at one point also.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I am just amazed with the amount of people who seem to have done a complete 360 just because she has been in the witness box a few hours and had a good cry ( all related to herself / cats / dead dog / commute to court )
This Hummingbird investigation is very much alive and being both recruited and worked.
I can’t actually see the sun for the red flags flapping in the wind but what do I know.
There is only one person standing in this witness box in Court 7, there is a very VERY big reason for this.

 

[Dotta]

It's perfectly normal to carry uniforms/scrubs home and wash them yourself. Less so the shoes perhaps!

Medical clothes which have contact with patients' blood, many germs, etc. should be washed in hospital with special detergents (anti virus, etc).

Why to wear scrubs then if they are treated as normal clothes and taken home?

They are WORK uniforms and should stay at work place.
Bringing them home is a health hazard.

All according to my friend who works in hospital.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I am just amazed with the amount of people who seem to have done a complete 360 just because she has been in the witness box a few hours and had a good cry ( all related to herself / cats / dead dog / commute to court )
This Hummingbird investigation is very much alive and being both recruited and worked.
I can’t actually see the sun for the red flags flapping in the wind but what do I know.
There is only one person standing in this witness box in Court 7, there is a very VERY big reason for this.

I wonder if some people assume that it was the prosecution questioning her, and assume that they were happy with her responses and won't ask again.

 

[esther43]

It makes sense for it to have been written in 2016, since it was found in the 2016 diary. I personally don’t think it’s likely that note would have found its way in there if written at a later date. JMO.

For me, some of yesterday's evidence made the diary entry stuff sound worse rather than better.
For example her noting down that she had mentored someone because that was important to write down. Then there was links to places she went on the days that suspicious events occured.
Seemingly colour coded to represent 'work' and 'social'. LL states that she just 'writes these things down as they come to her' which says to me, she may have also added 'salsa' and other things retrospectively too.
The other thing I found really bizarre was the note saying handover', 'audit', 'workforce', 'scheduling', 'timeframe'. Wtf? Why did Myers not ask her what she meant by that?
And also, scribbling out 'maybe I did do this' etc


"Letby says those names were written as something notable had happened. A note on May 14 also has the name of a student nurse, which Letby says was 'documented' as it was important at work when mentoring took place.

A further note is shown, with very tightly written writing in different directions, to the court. It is written by Lucy Letby.

The note 'started off as a work-based role' note, with words of 'handover', 'audit', 'workforce', 'scheduling', 'timeframe'.

A close-up of the bottom-left corner is shown, with

writing in different directions.

Words include 'Bombay' [written several times] - Letby's pub quiz team name. A colleague's name is written - 'people who were important to me'. A name of Letby's high school teacher is also written.

A crossed-out section is also shown. Behind the crossed-out part, Mr Myers tries to identify the words: 'I don't know if I killed them. Maybe I did, Maybe this is down to me'

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

I am just amazed with the amount of people who seem to have done a complete 360 just because she has been in the witness box a few hours and had a good cry ( all related to herself / cats / dead dog / commute to court )
This Hummingbird investigation is very much alive and being both recruited and worked.
I can’t actually see the sun for the red flags flapping in the wind but what do I know.
There is only one person standing in this witness box in Court 7, there is a very VERY big reason for this.

Did the same with the prosecution.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Well they are in for an almighty shock then !
She is being treated with absolute kid gloves on the stand with the breaks in evidence ( unheard of ) and with her Counsel hammering home she had 30 hours of interviews by the police …. Big deal. They were over 3 separate arrests over 3 days per YEAR.
That’s nothing in my opinion. They did their job within PACE guidelines to the letter.

 

[marynnu]

Medical clothes which have contact with patients' blood, many germs, etc. should be washed in hospital with special detergents (anti virus, etc).

Why to wear scrubs then if they are treated as normal clothes and taken home?

They are WORK uniforms and should stay at work place.
Bringing them home is a health hazard.

All according to my friend who works in hospital.

JMO

Well, we did this where I worked. I'm just saying it's not an unusual thing.