UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[esther43]

I'm not sure that that's correct. I'm sure it's been mentioned that the sheets relate to the whole ward/unit so that everyone knows who is doing what in relation to each patient.

Thanks, seems you were right about handover sheets containing info for all the babies.

 

[Tortoise]

It was clarified in the mail podcast that they contain details of all the babies on the unit and who their designated nurse is.

The Trial of Lucy Letby: Episode 29, Arrested

www.mailplus.co.uk

This is why I say, with a full set of handover sheets, if guilty, LL could have used them to create a plan of which babies to target. For instance, hypothetically speaking and if she's guilty, she might have wanted to create the impression that every time a certain nurse has a certain baby it collapses under their care, so implicating another nurse, in any investigation. Baby I is an example where this could have been the case, with Ashleigh Hudson being her designated nurse on the shifts spanning several weeks when she collapsed and when she died. All she would need to do for her next attack, hypothetically, would be to know this fact and wait for the next time she is on shift with AH being the designated nurse for the same baby.

I think there is also a pattern with Mel Taylor, who handed over baby A to LL and for whom doctors could establish no reason for her to have died. If guilty, I think this could have been uppermost in LL's mind, with the babies who subsequently collapsed/died on MT's shifts.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

One of the early police interviews -

Letby is asked if she had taken any paperwork home in relation to the babies, Letby denies she has taken papers home, then adds: "I don't know - I might have taken some handover sheets accidentally. Not medical notes.
"They [the handover sheets] might have been taken [home] in my pocket."

Her final police interview on 3rd arrest -

In a third overarching interview, Letby is asked about the handover sheets.
She said, 'ideally', the handover sheets should be put in the confidential waste bin at the end of her shifts.
She said that at times, they would come home with her.
She is asked about 'a large quantity of handover sheets' at Letby's home address. She replies there was "no specific reason" why she had taken them home.
She said she would have been aware she still had the handover sheets when she got home, and put them in a folder in the spare room.
She said she "didn't know how to dispose of them" and no-one else had seen them.
She said she would have seen those handover sheets at home "hardly ever".
She said she did not have a shredder and those sheets were at home 'inadvertently'.
Other paperwork at home would have been policy sheets from different hospitals, in relation on how to care when a patient presents with various symptoms.
Letby said she 'had just not done anything' about the handover sheets when she got home.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

"She said she would have seen those handover sheets at home "hardly ever"."

It sounds like a lie to me.

Putting sheets in a folder is organised and purposeful.

JMO

 

[esther43]

I was just listening to the the podcast link you posted and noted there was a hint of resentment in LL when after baby b she was delegated to special care, she complained to JJK that MT was 'also in bits' over the deaths yet was allowed in room 1.
Also, I only just noticed that JJK is a nursery nurse and not a qualified band 5. So wouldn't really be in and among the deaths the same way as other nurses would, unless she had done an advanced training course to allow her to support a nurse in HDU.

 

[ColourPurple]

I agree ..imo if guilty I'd be very suprised if it NOT a whole life tariff

I agree. I think anybody who's folllowed the trial in any detail is expecting nothing less than a whole life order, if she's found guilty.

If guilty, she targeted siblings, allegedly killing one triplet the day after killing the other one. IMO that would be enough to show premeditation, without even factoring in whether the handover notes were used to plan attacks.

If guilty, it could also be argued that there was a sadistic element to the alleged attacks. But even without a sadistic element, a person in a postion of trust, found guilty of numerous premeditated child murders should fit the criteria for a whole life order. I don't think the seriousness of the offence could be much higher!

All JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

One of the early police interviews -

Letby is asked if she had taken any paperwork home in relation to the babies, Letby denies she has taken papers home, then adds: "I don't know - I might have taken some handover sheets accidentally. Not medical notes.
"They [the handover sheets] might have been taken [home] in my pocket."

Her final police interview on 3rd arrest -

In a third overarching interview, Letby is asked about the handover sheets.
She said, 'ideally', the handover sheets should be put in the confidential waste bin at the end of her shifts.
She said that at times, they would come home with her.
She is asked about 'a large quantity of handover sheets' at Letby's home address. She replies there was "no specific reason" why she had taken them home.
She said she would have been aware she still had the handover sheets when she got home, and put them in a folder in the spare room.
She said she "didn't know how to dispose of them" and no-one else had seen them.
She said she would have seen those handover sheets at home "hardly ever".
She said she did not have a shredder and those sheets were at home 'inadvertently'.
Other paperwork at home would have been policy sheets from different hospitals, in relation on how to care when a patient presents with various symptoms.
Letby said she 'had just not done anything' about the handover sheets when she got home.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

"She said she would have seen those handover sheets at home "hardly ever"."

It sounds like a lie to me.

Putting sheets in a folder is organised and purposeful.

JMO

And even if taken at face value, it's an admission that she did look at them on occasion.

 

[katydid23]

I don't see that any of that applies. Firstly, I don't recall it ever being mentioned about them being "sealed" then got rid of; secondly, the not wanting them on hospital grounds (in anyone else's possesion) can't be a reason either as these documents, as as i undetstand them, are not one-off documents. Every nurse gets their own copy so she's not hiding vital evidence from anyone else.

One big problem with the documents being off the hospital grounds in her possession is that she essentially had confidential medical information for EVERY baby in that unit over a one year period. That is a massive breach of confidentiality.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Besides, sitting for 30 years in solitary can only deepen MH issues.
Because such killers are rarely kept in general population (for their own sake).

"Rehabilitation" looks good on paper, but prison reality is a completely different matter.

It is just my view.

I agree. I think these type of offenders have a lot of professionals wanting to work with them so maybe they get a lot of input and help? It would be interesting to know how their lived experience is inside prison. I don't know if they're kept alone, I seem to recall reading that Myra Hindley was well liked and had a lot of friends and lovers including prison warders :/

 

[Marantz4250b]

I agree. I think these type of offenders have a lot of professionals wanting to work with them so maybe they get a lot of input and help? It would be interesting to know how their lived experience is inside prison. I don't know if they're kept alone, I seem to recall reading that Myra Hindley was well liked and had a lot of friends and lovers including prison warders :/

I think they tend to be kept separated for quite some time at the start of their sentence then put on a wing with the rest of the general <modsnip>

 

[Parker Knoll]

I agree - if found guilty I cannot see any other sentence other than a whole life order.
Neonatal or not - she was a nurse first and foremost.
If the general public cannot trust them then we are well and truly screwed.
IMHO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Not wishing to diminish the alledged murders and attempted murders involved in this case, but a position of authority would not include neonatal nurses, imo.
They are not using the powers of arrest to abduct and murder, and it is these types of crimes that are under closer scrutiny currently.

Most occupations involve some level of authority, in some form or another.

I don't know if I agree with that - it is still the most ultimate abuse of job position, trust, and power, over the most vulnerable being in existence = a premature baby

Even a bent copper rapist murderer is picking on a grown adult by comparison JMO MOO

 

[Dotta]

I agree - if found guilty I cannot see any other sentence other than a whole life order.
Neonatal or not - she was a nurse first and foremost.
If the general public cannot trust them then we are well and truly screwed.
IMHO

Considering MH issues some land in secure Mental Health Institutions - almost always for ever.

 

[ColourPurple]

I was just listening to the the podcast link you posted and noted there was a hint of resentment in LL when after baby b she was delegated to special care, she complained to JJK that MT was 'also in bits' over the deaths yet was allowed in room 1.

LL did come across as bitter but the choice seems logical. Imagine you're the shift leader and have to chose who goes in room 1.Do you chose:

A.The band 6 nurse, who was present for Baby A's death in room 1 but had just handed over care to another nurse, and wasn't present for Baby B's collapse and resus.
B. The band 5 nurse who was the designated nurse for Baby A when he died in room 1, and present the day after, when Baby B collapsed and needed resus in the same room.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

How can they really prove they are no longer a risk to the public though?

Does massive psychological therapy and assessment truly change a brutal killer?

We have had some pretty bad luck with many of our parolees and it is hard to really know if they are truly cured or not.

They must prove they are fit to return to society to a team of psychologists, various other trained individuals depending on the prisoners circumstances, and ultimately, a parole board and a judge. If they are unable to do so through their meetings or their behavior they should be refused release.



Once released, they should have extremely tight probation conditions, and be returned to prison if they break, or are thought to have broken their terms.



This is the best society can do to guarantee the welfare of the public, whilst offering a realistic chance of rehabilitation to the offender.



The system isn’t perfect, but UK’s justice system remains the gold standard, globally. Anecdotally, there will always be horror stories. The truth is, however, that there are very few instances of convicted murderers being released and reoffending, other than minor offenses (which they are immediately sent back to prison for regardless of how trivial).

 

[JosieJo]

I don't know if I agree with that - it is still the most ultimate abuse of job position, trust, and power, over the most vulnerable being in existence = a premature baby

Even a bent copper rapist murderer is picking on a grown adult by comparison JMO MOO

I agree ...there is no difference in police or nurses ...they both hold the "authority" ...police can use their warrant card and status etc ...a nurse uses their authority over vulnerable people...no one would question the word of a qualified nurse same as police

 

[JosieJo]

I agree ...there is no difference in police or nurses ...they both hold the "authority" ...police can use their warrant card and status etc ...a nurse uses their authority over vulnerable people...no one would question the word of a qualified nurse same as police

Prime example..the mum who trusted LL when asked to return to her ward

 

[Dotta]

They must prove they are fit to return to society to a team of psychologists, various other trained individuals depending on the prisoners circumstances, and ultimately, a parole board and a judge. If they are unable to do so through their meetings or their behavior they should be refused release.



Once released, they should have extremely tight probation conditions, and be returned to prison if they break, or are thought to have broken their terms.



This is the best society can do to guarantee the welfare of the public, whilst offering a realistic chance of rehabilitation to the offender.



The system isn’t perfect, but UK’s justice system remains the gold standard, globally. Anecdotally, there will always be horror stories. The truth is, however, that there are very few instances of convicted murderers being released and reoffending, other than minor offenses (which they are immediately sent back to prison for regardless of how trivial).

I still remember a case I followed here on WS of a man deemed rehabilitated enough to have a trip to the centre of London's Gallery/Museum (with some guards).

And guess what?

The 1st thing he did was to throw a little boy from the viewing deck balcony

Fortunately, the boy (French tourist) survived the attack, but is undergoing constant therapies.
His life and his family's will never be the same as before this tragedy.

 

[marynnu]

I agree. I think anybody who's folllowed the trial in any detail is expecting nothing less than a whole life order, if she's found guilty.

If guilty, she targeted siblings, allegedly killing one triplet the day after killing the other one. IMO that would be enough to show premeditation, without even factoring in whether the handover notes were used to plan attacks.

If guilty, it could also be argued that there was a sadistic element to the alleged attacks. But even without a sadistic element, a person in a postion of trust, found guilty of numerous premeditated child murders should fit the criteria for a whole life order. I don't think the seriousness of the offence could be much higher!

All JMO

Just my view, but as I think I've said before, if guilty IMO this is more about inflicting harm & suffering than murder. After all, most of the babies survived and if murder is the aim it could be done less brutally. This would be the most heartbreaking thing for the parents I believe, because dreadful as it is to lose a child, the idea of them suffering is a million times worse.
All JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

Letby said she was made aware in May 2016, formally, of the higher mortality rate among babies, and that was when she was moved to day shifts. [...]

Mr Myers asks about the 2016 reallocation to day shifts, following a number of deaths on the neonatal unit.
Ms Powell said the move to the day shift was to give Letby "more support" in staffing numbers, and was not "a punishment".
Mr Myers said the unit remained busy during those days.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

So here we see that it wasn't a decision taken to see if the rate of collapses/deaths moved from night-shifts to day-shifts, it was to reduce some of the pressures that could have been affecting LL on the night-shifts. But follow her they did...

 

[Tortoise]

Just my view, but as I think I've said before, if guilty IMO this is more about inflicting harm & suffering than murder. After all, most of the babies survived and if murder is the aim it could be done less brutally. This would be the most heartbreaking thing for the parents I believe, because dreadful as it is to lose a child, the idea of them suffering is a million times worse.
All JMO.

Could you explain what you mean by 'if murder is the aim it could be done less brutally'?