UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

[Marantz4250b]

12:58pm

The prosecution say other collapses could be due to "sabotaging".
The prosecution adds these deaths and non-fatal collapses were deliberate, and Letby was the "constant malevolent presence" when things took a turn for the worse in these 17 children, Mr Johnson added.

I'm surprised that the phrase "could be" is being employed so early on. This suggests that they can't prove it. Also an implication it was because she "was present".

 

[Marantz4250b]

And mention of a "very restrictive number of people" who could have entered, which surely suggests that this prosecution is highly reliant on very circumstantial evidence!

 

[Supernovae]

How can they prove poison though without toxicology reports?

From Chester Live:

Police were then called in, and commissioned a "painstaking review" by "experienced doctors with no connection to the Countess of Chester Hospital".

The review concluded that two children were "poisoned" with insulin.

The prosecution say the "only reasonable conclusion" is the babies were poisoned "deliberately - these were no accidents".

It'll be interesting to see how the review was able to come to that conclusion.

 

[Marantz4250b]

From Chester Live:



It'll be interesting to see how the review was able to come to that conclusion.

And two is a very long way away from seventeen!

 

[JosieJo]

From Chester Live:



It'll be interesting to see how the review was able to come to that conclusion.

It may be that the children had sudden unexplained drops in blood sugar when they collapsed ..they can test blood sugar on the spot.
Another indication may be that on giving the baby intravenous glucose to correct this wasn't working even though it should have ..jmo obviously

 

[gill1109]

Interesting. It's clear that it was the hospital authorities who developed the idea that Lucy Letby was the cause; they moved her from night shifts to day shifts, and the events started happening during the day. They claim two babies were killed with insulin.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Interesting. It's clear that it was the hospital authorities who developed the idea that Lucy Letby was the cause; they moved her from night shifts to day shifts, and the events started happening during the day. They claim two babies were killed with insulin.

Did they "move" her though or was it just a natural change in her working pattern? As we've mentioned before, if you suspect that a nurse in your employ might be murdering patients surely you'd suspend them?

 

[ZaZara]

Interesting. It's clear that it was the hospital authorities who developed the idea that Lucy Letby was the cause; they moved her from night shifts to day shifts, and the events started happening during the day. They claim two babies were killed with insulin.

Babies from mothers with gestational diabetes make extra insulin naturally.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Sky news has just mentioned that a report is coming up after the ad break.

 

[gill1109]

Persons who collapse while in a serious medical condition tend to have blood-sugar levels which are all over the place. A high level or a too low level does not mean that illegally given insulin or whatever was the cause of the abnormal blood-sugar level. It *could* have been. But the cause could have been anything, in particular, it could have been the underlying medical condition (and how it is currently being treated). Interesting that the events shifted to day-time when LL's shifts were re-aassigned. In daytime there are huge numbers of nurses and doctors around, also technicians, supporting staff, visitors. It's very hard to kill a newborn baby in a hospital ward in the daytime.

[One of my grandchildren was born a month early after a difficult pregnancy. The baby girl never started breathing independently and after a month she was taken off life support systems and died. We have been visiting many times. We suspect that microplastics, nowadays everywhere in the air and water and ground, are causing an increase in developmental abnormalities in unborn children. The doctors at the best academic hospital in the Netherlands could not explain our grandchild's abnormality and it seems that the rate of such unexplained tragedies has increased]

 

[annpats]

I've got an awful feeling she's going to be found guilty.

So many deaths stacked up against her.

I know the Countess of Chester Neo-natal Unit is in special measures and has been graded as not acceptable, and there was talk she could have been added a scapegoat for failures.....but the CPS must be satisfied that there is evidence that points to her actively killing these babies with intent.

She's not up for manslaughter or medical negligence, it's murder.

Had there not been the evidence, the case wouldn't have got this far.

I'm scared for her, and her parents and also sorry for her colleagues, and most of all, for the people who lost their children.

MOO.

 

[HollyHunter9]

Also, you cannot just go and randomly pick up bottles of insulin in hospital. Usually a request is made to the hospital pharmacy on behalf of a specific patient and the medication is then brought up to the ward in a locked trolley where it is electronically signed for and administered to the patient. You can't just go in a cupboard and find some and take it without anyone realising in MOO.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I've got an awful feeling she's going to be found guilty.

So many deaths stacked up against her.

I know the Countess of Chester neo-natal Unit is in special measures and has been graded as not acceptable, but the CPS must be satisfied that there is evidence that points to her actively killing these babies with intent.

She's not up for manslaughter or medical negligence, it's murder.

Had there not been the evidence, the case wouldn't have got this far.

I'm scared for her, and her parents and also sorry for her colleagues, and most of all the people who lost their children.

MOO.

It's telling what the prosecution hasn't said, though. They have not said that they can physically prove that she administered something. They haven't said that she definitely tampered with medication. Indeed, they have said the the injuries and deaths "could have been" due to this. That sounds very weak to me, to be quite honest.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

"The names of the children, their parents, witnesses connected to them, and eight medical witnesses cannot be reported - so all media will be referring to them as Children A to Q throughout the trial."

Lucy Letby trial - live: Nurse accused of killing seven babies goes on trial

Because they are witnesses as a consequence of their professional employment with the defendant.

To be labelled as being associated professionally with these alleged offences could adversely affect their career and prompt unwanted attention from the media and others, not affording them the opportunity to move on with their lives and professional careers.

If witnesses in such circumstances were not protected by the courts then in future many may not be so willing to come forward and provide witness testimony.

The same applied to the teachers of Rocky Marciano Price in his trial for the murder of Lindsay Birbeck.

 

[JosieJo]

Persons who collapse while in a serious medical condition tend to have blood-sugar levels which are all over the place. A high level or a too low level does not mean that insulin or whatever was the cause of the abnormal blood-sugar level. It *could* have been. But the cause could have been anything, in particular, it could have been the underlying medical condition (and how it is currently being treated). Interesting that the events shifted to day-time when LL's shifts were re-aassigned. In daytime there are huge numbers of nurses and doctors around, also technicians, supporting staff, visitors. It's very hard to kill a baby in the daytime.

We need to hear from the medical experts..they will know if any other likely causes were relevant or not.

What is often unique to insulin overdose is that despite treating with intravenous glucose the blood sugar will not rise

 

[pickle26]

The new charges against her could be a result of babies having been exhumed and post mortem and toxicology carried out. Not all of the babies that passed had postmortems and toxicology tests undertaken when they passed. Not a nice thought, I know.

 

[JosieJo]

Also, you cannot just go and randomly pick up bottles of insulin in hospital. Usually a request is made to the hospital pharmacy on behalf of a specific patient and the medication is then brought up to the ward in a locked trolley where it is electronically signed for and administered to the patient. You can't just go in a cupboard and find some and take it without anyone realising in MOO.

Insulin is not a controlled drug on a ward it is normally in the medication fridge and does not have to be signed out as a rule of thumb anyway.
Would be very easy for a nurse to go to fridge and get it

 

[Alternative Paradox]

I might be the odd one out here but I think they will have some pretty strong evidence against her. That is a lot of charges.
....

RSBM

Firstly, apologies for my somewhat confused little brain here, it's definitely not yet up to Websleuths speed and clarity!!

Right, let the ramblings commence....

Train of thought here... if LL is accused of multiple previous murder/harm attempts on single children...
a) how were those individual attempts on each child discovered/identified or have they been 'presumed' since they followed an apparent MO?
b) if they were specifically identified was this immediately post an/any event, during the series of events or after the series of events?
.... as surely there's a need to discount any evidence-free assumption/presumption and also because if there is specific evidence of occasioned harm during those multiple attempts, surely it calls into question the level of (in)competence of co-workers - this is not intended as a jibe at her co-workers rather that it would present a somewhat damning picture overall of the level of care provided by the department as a whole, which, being so, could in turn call up the spectre of a 'she dunnit' scapegoat and so question the basic premise of her guilt?

It's the multiple attempts and no one saw or knew anything aspect that I find concerning.

But then again, perhaps I'm just being too over-analytical, as I said, not up to sleuthing speed yet!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Also, you cannot just go and randomly pick up bottles of insulin in hospital. Usually a request is made to the hospital pharmacy on behalf of a specific patient and the medication is then brought up to the ward in a locked trolley where it is electronically signed for and administered to the patient. You can't just go in a cupboard and find some and take it without anyone realising in MOO.

Exactly! Lets face it murder in a medical setting via insulin seems to be extremely common; Allitt did it that way and there have been numerous other cases where insulin has been used. These cases have been occurring for absolutely decades. If these deaths and collapses were genuinely unexpected and unexplained then surely poisoning by insulin would be an almost automatic thing to look in to?

This is what Lucia De Burk was accused of, was it not? We all know how that ended.

 

[Ruby12345]

We've got our answer to why she's a suspect then, presence.

The same as Rebecca Leighton...