UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

[Ruby12345]

The cause of 'poisoning' "simply did not occur to medical staff working at the Countess that someone in the neonatal unit "would have injected them with insulin", the court heard.

So they assumed it was natural at the time?

 

[Marantz4250b]

So they assumed it was natural at the time?

You'd still try to find out why it happened though, surely?

 

[Tortoise]

2:31pm

The case "concerns seven allegations of murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of 10 other babies."
Mr Johnson tells the court: "Sometimes Lucy Letby tried to kill the same baby more than once – and sometimes a baby that she succeeded in managing to kill was not killed the first or second time, and in one case, even the third time."

LIVE: Trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

 

[Tortoise]

1m ago14:32

Letby allegedly took up to three attempts before managing to kill some victims​

In some cases, it took Letby up to three attempts before she managed to kill her victim, Nick Johnson KC says on behalf of the prosecution.
"Sometimes a baby that she succeeding in killing was not killed the first, or even second time she tried," he tells the court.

Lucy Letby trial - live: 'A poisoner was at work in the hospital' - Nurse accused of killing seven babies goes on trial

 

[infinit]

I wonder how this number compares with the number of babies under her care that she isn't accused of harming.

I'd also be interested in how they've defined which deaths are within scope. I could potentially see an argument that deaths have been selected which fit the argument e.g. she was present. But I guess the medical evidence will speak on that.

I'd also be curious about how statistically unlikely it would be that someone was on shift for all of them, if you ordered all the staff by how often they were on shift for these deaths, how big is the difference between her and the 2nd.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

What you say is the theory. In practice, it doesn't work like this. The fact that there were many "unexplained" bad events at which LL was present is *supporting evidence* that she murdered one particular child. It suggests that she is a psychopath with a desire to harm young babies. Hence, it supports the question of "motive". Instructing a jury that they must treat each case on its own merits is an impossible instruction. In fact, it is one of the major issues brought up in our report. 64 pages of wisdom, aimed at lawyers and journalists as much as at statisticians. https://rss.org.uk/RSS/media/File-l...pected_medical_misconduct_Sept_2022_FINAL.pdf

Yes, I understand that an alleged pattern of behaviour will likely be used to make the assertion that evidence of the M.O. of one, two, a few could, in the Crowns view, be applied to all.

I am uncomfortable with this premise. However, it would appear that the CPS aren't.

It plays out much like joint enterprise in gang related murder cases.....i.e. You were present so you are just as guilty as the one who delivered the fatal blow, stab, shot!

On the point of motive. Whilst it is advantageous for the defence to demonstrate motive, it is not a required element to prove for a conviction. This applies to every criminal offence in England/Wales.

Scotland and Northern Ireland do their own thing!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Also, it could quite reasonably be explained by the fact that she was very had working and put in s many hours as she could?

 

[annpats]

She might be guilty though. Why are you so sure she's innocent? We've hardly heard anything yet

Edit- Actually, sorry, I misread your post

I do think she's guilty, sadly.

I can't see how it would get this far to trial unless the evidence wasn't almost watertight.

 

[Tortoise]

I'd also be interested in how they've defined which deaths are within scope. I could potentially see an argument that deaths have been selected which fit the argument e.g. she was present. But I guess the medical evidence will speak on that.

I'd also be curious about how statistically unlikely it would be that someone was on shift for all of them, if you ordered all the staff by how often they were on shift for these deaths, how big is the difference between her and the 2nd.

Yes, one might argue that they've only selected the deaths and collapses from when LL was on shift, so she would always be present.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I do think she's guilty, sadly.

I can't see how it would get this far to trial unless the evidence wasn't almost watertight.

Statements such as "....could have been..." tend to suggest otherwise. I have no idea as to why you'd include that in an opening statement even if you believed it.

 

[JosieJo]

As well as just being on duty at the time it will be interesting to know:

Was the baby allocated to her at the time?.
Was she allocated the baby while the babies nurse was on break?
Was she at the forefront of the "drama" which would unfold. Was she present at the resuscitation attempts as in at the forefront

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yes, one might argue that they've only selected the deaths and collapses from when LL was on shift, so she would always be present.

And the KC giving the opening actually mentioned that these deaths and collapses went on for 18 months. The charges only relate to a 12 month period. If the full 18 month period is taken into account was she still there for all of them?

 

[Tortoise]

I do think she's guilty, sadly.

I can't see how it would get this far to trial unless the evidence wasn't almost watertight.

If that were the standard there would never be any acquittals though.

 

[Supernovae]

Also, it could quite reasonably be explained by the fact that she was very had working and put in s many hours as she could?

It goes beyond that and is related to how you define your hypothesis and sample group. I'd recommend this article by Ben Goldacre on Lucia de Berk. I could end up quoting the whole thing:

Ben Goldacre: Lies, damned lies and statistics

Ben Goldacre: It is possible to be very unlucky indeed. A nurse called Lucia de Berk has been in prison for five years in Holland, convicted of seven counts of murder and three of attempted murder.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Tortoise]

2:43pm

Letby was "originally from Hereford" and studied nursing at the University of Chester.
Mr Johnson tells the court: "At the time of the events leading to the charges against her she was a nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital and had been so since she had qualified a few years earlier.
"Throughout the period she had been working in the neonatal unit."
Prior to her arrest, she had been living in Chester, the court hears.

LIVE: Trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

 

[Tortoise]

2:45pm

Nurses worked on the children's ward as well as the neonatal unit, but "it was the general rule" they did not mix on a shift.
A day shift would begin at 7.30am and the night shift would end at 8am, leaving a 30-minute handover period.
A general briefing would occur during that time, before patient-specific handovers.
There were two types of day shift - a short day and a long day. A short day would end in the afternoon, the long day shift would end at 8pm.
When babies are handed over from one shift to the next, the system was that a sheet was produced, listing all the babies in the unit at the time and their corresponding designated nurses.

2:48pm

The hospital has - and had - band 6 nurses, band 5 nurses - ones who had done special training and ones who had not - and band 4 nurses (nursery nurses).
Letby had done her special training, caring for intensive care unit babies, which permitted her to work in the neonatal unit.

LIVE: Trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

 

[pickle26]

A lot of premature babies do require insulin however due to hypoglycemia from low body fat, organs still developing, etc. Some of the insulin administration would have been prescribed and needed.

Quote

 

[HollyHunter9]

All wards have a staff rota which is usually managed by admin staff such as ward clerks or secretaries so for example if somebody calls in sick the ward clerk or secretary will update the rota and then email or print it for everyone with the updates so that staff are aware of who is in at what time, who's off sick, who's on call, what time peoples shifts start/finish etc. BUT what the rotas do not capture is the movements of other staff members from outside that particular department or ward. Cleaners or maintenance staff for example come and go as they please on the wards, they don't usually need to sign in anywhere, they have key card access to the pretty much the entire hospital and nobody really checks up on where they are. For example they could be scheduled to be cleaning say ward 10 at 9am but might go and clean somewhere else first and no one would really know.

A recent horrific example of this is David Fuller, the NHS electrican who for 30 years was sneaking into the mortuary to assault dead bodies. During all the times these incidents happened did no one wonder 'where is he?' Or 'what is he up to?' It's surprisingly easy to roam around a hospital unchallenged if you work there. (I've attached a link at the bottom of this post).

So have they have mentioned a chart of staff on shift during the incidences but have they tried to find out if anyone else who doesn't usually work in the department was present on the unit when the deaths occurred?

How would they even find out this data/info when there is no way of knowing as it's not information that is captured or recorded anywhere?

Hospital electrician murdered two women and abused 99 dead bodies

Investigators have so far detected at least 99 potential victims

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Now14:51

Letby had special training in caring for ICU babies​

Letby, 32, studied for her nursing degree at Chester University and had worked at Countess of Chester Hospital since qualifying up until the time of her arrest.
She had undergone special training in caring for ICU babies.
Nick Johnson KC then outlines to the jury the hierarchy within the hospital - Letby was in the second-highest band of nurses on the unit.
With one or two exceptions, the babies who were harmed, or killed, were allegedly attacked in the ICU or high-dependency unit (HDU).

Lucy Letby trial - live: 'A poisoner was at work in the hospital' - Nurse accused of killing seven babies goes on trial

 

[Tortoise]

2:51pm

On a specific shift, a senior nurse would be designated as a shift leader, responsible for assigning specific nurses to specific babies.
They would be responsible for the administration of medicine.
The neonatal unit had four rooms, split into the ICU (intensive care unit), the HDU (high dependency unit) and special care babies rooms.
"With one or two exceptions", the cases in this trial, Mr Johnson explains, were dealt with in the ICU or HDU.

2:55pm

Doctors at the hospital would work different shifts from the nurses, and a shift would cover the children's ward and the neonatal unit.
Paediatric consultants would be on duty from 9am-5pm, while at night there would be a paediatric consultant on call within 10 minutes of the department.
Registrars would provide senior medical cover overnight.

LIVE: Trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders