UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

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Hi, I'm new to WebSleuths so just want to ask a question please. Do you normally post live feed updates into the conversation? I am finding the comments get a bit lost amongst all the live feeds updates. I assume most people are following the news and this
chat, so maybe dont need the live updates here too. Apologies if this is the norm though. Just thinking its p24 on the 2nd week of a 6mths trial!
 
Hi, I'm new to WebSleuths so just want to ask a question please. Do you normally post live feed updates into the conversation? I am finding the comments get a bit lost amongst all the live feeds updates. I assume most people are following the news and this
chat, so maybe dont need the live updates here too. Apologies if this is the norm though. Just thinking its p24 on the 2nd week of a 6mths trial!
I've not followed any of the other threads about live trials so can't say either way.

Yes, there will be a LOT of posts here over the next few months, I'm sure!
 
From Sky:

"We suggest it is an unusual interest and we will see that on occasions she searched in quick succession for several of the families of children's names who appear on this indictment," said Mr Johnson.

That tends to suggest that the searches were done at a time other than when the deaths/alleged attacks happened, possibly after her arrest or when she'd been asked about them by the police.
 
Defence - Benjamin Myers


 
Ah, right, I see.

I think she said in interview that it would be pretty hard to do that? Can anyone confirm that? Or not, obviously.

I wouldn’t have thought it was that difficult ..presumably a tiny baby would not need much air to take effect.
I would say it would be just a case of carrying around empty syringes in your pocket and injecting air in.
I'd imagine the lines would be quite narrow bore and may need a little pressure on the syringe but not that difficult I wouldn’t have thought.
As nurses you are constantly trained on not getting air in lines and educated on the dangers of it
 
I think it's perfectly reasonable that she still had it. She may not even have realised she still had it, after all.

I struggle with coincidence..its not odd she may have it but from so many years previously? And just happened to be that days handover.
If she had lots of such rubbish in her house maybe ? But otherwise a huge coincidence imo
 
I struggle with coincidence..its not odd she may have it but from so many years previously? And just happened to be that days handover.
If she had lots of such rubbish in her house maybe ? But otherwise a huge coincidence imo
I see where you're coming from. Similarly to yourself, coincidences do seem weird to me but they do happen perfectly innocently. Now if she's got various stuff relating to all the children she's accused of harming and none or very little of anything relating to other patients then that may paint a very different picture.
 
Would there be any sensible reasons as to why a patient record sheet would be found at her home?
Tiredness at the end of a shift. I frequently come home with a handover sheet in my pocket. It shouldn't happen but it does. I usually just put them in my work bag and dispose of them in the confidential waste at the start of my next shift, however when I moved house a few months ago I found a stray one between my bed and bedside table.
 
I see where you're coming from. Similarly to yourself, coincidences do seem weird to me but they do happen perfectly innocently. Now if she's got various stuff relating to all the children she's accused of harming and none or very little of anything relating to other patients then that may paint a very different picture.

I was wondering if she was keeping stuff to do with the babies she allegedly killed, like serial killers have been known to keep a shoe or a purse or something of their victim.

Obviously a new baby isn't going to have any possessions, so perhaps a handover sheet or paper medical note with the baby's name on might be the only thing available.

Food for thought.

MOO.
 
Hi, I'm new to WebSleuths so just want to ask a question please. Do you normally post live feed updates into the conversation? I am finding the comments get a bit lost amongst all the live feeds updates. I assume most people are following the news and this
chat, so maybe dont need the live updates here too. Apologies if this is the norm though. Just thinking its p24 on the 2nd week of a 6mths trial!
The live updates may have been posted from twitter or Facebook, otherwise I don't know the reason for it
 
Hi, I'm new to WebSleuths so just want to ask a question please. Do you normally post live feed updates into the conversation? I am finding the comments get a bit lost amongst all the live feeds updates. I assume most people are following the news and this
chat, so maybe dont need the live updates here too. Apologies if this is the norm though. Just thinking its p24 on the 2nd week of a 6mths trial!
It is pretty normal for live cases like these. Some cases have #150+ threads. I imagine this case will be well into double figures by the 6 month mark.
 
Hi, I'm new to WebSleuths so just want to ask a question please. Do you normally post live feed updates into the conversation? I am finding the comments get a bit lost amongst all the live feeds updates. I assume most people are following the news and this
chat, so maybe dont need the live updates here too. Apologies if this is the norm though. Just thinking its p24 on the 2nd week of a 6mths trial!
I'm not following the case in the media (I just don't have time) but I'm interested in it and I find the live updates really useful when I pop in here for a read/update. Apart from anything else, they're clear, unbiased, filled with useful details and can be relied upon as 100% accurate, as opposed to eg. reading a reported (potentially subjective) media version of them elsewhere.

I'm grateful to those who provide them. And thanks to @Tortoise in this instance, who seems, from the quick read I've had, to be providing them on here.
 
They mention she was doing blood gas on a baby she was not designated to look after but they haven't elaborated why...was the ward short staffed and she was also attending other babies that were not designated to her that night that were unharmed?

Were other staff members also crossing over doing this to help each other out?

Having worked in the NHS myself for over 10 years it's not unusual to end up with paperwork at home by accident or if she was training to be a nurse specialist she may have to do "case studies" for her exams and this paperwork was a reminder of a particular case. It will be interesting to find out if she had paperwork relating to ALL of the babies she's allegedly harmed or tried to harm?

I would also hope they have extensively tested the tubes and equipment for any faults or issues. NHS budget cuts will often result in hospitals trying to procure cheaper equipment and consumables to cut costs.

All MOO.
 
I know it's only day 1, but I get the feeling the defence are going to have to pull out something special to get any result here. All the medical experts seem to agree the deaths were unnatural. It that scenario, I can't see a jury not finding SOMEONE guilty.
 
I know it's only day 1, but I get the feeling the defence are going to have to pull out something special to get any result here. All the medical experts seem to agree the deaths were unnatural. It that scenario, I can't see a jury not finding SOMEONE guilty.
What I want to understand is WHEN these doctors/radiologists said it was sabotage. It can't have been at the initial PM or she would have been suspended/arrested at the time.
 
It's still very early doors - day one of a proposed six months. The Crown's opening statement outlining their case will continue tomorrow. However, my current thoughts are:

1. When did LL complete the additional ICU training to enable her to work with babies in the ICU/HDU rooms within the neonatal department?

2. What was the format of her additional training for ICU?

3. Was the training abbreviated in any way?

4. What did her training reports for the course say?

5. Was she let loose on the NNU after completing her course or did she have further on the job assessment/mentoring?

6. If failing to follow correct procedure when introducing fluids/drugs into lines, taking blood gases etc is it possible to accidentally introduce air in sufficient quantity, in a compromised neonatal baby, possibly resulting in critical deterioration/death?

7. Did the medical experts work blind in identifying a possible cause of medical emergency/death? By this I mean just medical history, signs, symptoms, tests, results, presentation before emergency, during critical intervention and recovery/after death etc?

8. How many other medical experts were consulted who did not concur with the view of their peers. What was their opinion and why?

9. Facebook evidence has been introduced. It can be made to look sinister/stalker like behaviour. Equally LL may have been distressed by the deaths and it was part of her own grieving process, in an environment which required a 'keep calm (stoical) and carry-on' approach. We will see more completely how Facebook played its part as the evidence is revealed.

10. The handover sheet found at LL's H/A gives rise to several possible explanations, not all damning, The volume of any further documents found and what they are will give a clearer indication of the likely reason for her possession of them.

11. I am greatly concerned by the Crown's assertion that a few cases, which they say have a basis in evidence, could be used to provide evidential weight of guilt for the remaining charges, based on similar circumstances. We will hear more, although this was my understanding of how the prosecution intend to develop their case.

12. It could be that there was no intent on LL's part and that these terrible events are the consequence of a combination of factors including poor technique, poor training, poor supervision, pressure of work, poor review of critical incidents/deaths, extreme tiredness etc. If any of these elements, or others, were present, then it should firmly bring CoCH's documented difficulties to the fore.

13. It could be that some or all of these events are no one's fault, someone else's, some faulty equipment or a combination. They may be a statistical anomaly, an outlier of natural deaths.

LL is innocent in the eyes of the law unless proven guilty. The evidence to convict her must be beyond reasonable doubt.....it must be certainty. Anything less and she remains innocent.

MOO
 
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I know it's only day 1, but I get the feeling the defence are going to have to pull out something special to get any result here. All the medical experts seem to agree the deaths were unnatural. It that scenario, I can't see a jury not finding SOMEONE guilty.
You've only heard the opening statement, we haven't heard from the medical experts yet
 
Yes, one might argue that they've only selected the deaths and collapses from when LL was on shift, so she would always be present.
Of course, they only selected the events which can be linked to her. And every pathologist who is asked to evaluate any of those events knows why they are being asked and knows about the case. They are eager to be seen to be good pathologists so they will be eager to show whey they think that his particular event could be seen to be unusual/unexplainable. Also out of collegiality, they will tend to agree with earlier evaluations. I'm not saying LL is innocent. I'm saying that so far I see no difference whatsoever with the cases of Lucia de Berk (NL) and Daniela Poggiali (It) and Ben Geen (UK).

Nobody in their right mind thinks that Lucia de Berk was guilty. I have no idea what your average Italian newspaper reader thinks about Daniela Poggiali. Ben Geen is in jail for life in the UK and I doubt he'll get out before he's sat out his time, but I am convinced he is innocent. I know a lot of background stuff about this case, and I see no reason whatsoever to suppose he's guilty. Here's an academic publication by myself on his case. Statistical Issues in Serial Killer Nurse Cases (open access!)
 
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