UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[Dotta]

Sorry, I meant of course to say that LE was justified in charging LL.

That was a head scratcher for sure hahaha

 

[Kemug]

Be kind to me Dotta, all these initials and acronyms can sometimes be just too much for my poor old brain!

 

[Charlot123]

I haven't yet caught up and I'm sure that others who have been NHS nurses would have responded already, but nurses choose to be nurses because that's the job they want. They don't care about "prestige" or "better pay" they care about their patients. I am not a nurse, but my children have spent a lot of time in hospital and nurses are unsung heros. They're the ones who are on hand, who know their patients best. They deserve better pay because the job they do warrants it. Many nurses don't want to be doctors because it would take them away from the hands on care that they enjoy and that they're good at.

The NHS is in a bad way, but in my view that's not because of the way it's structured, it's because our government aren't investing enough in to it. The NHS is one of the greatest achievements of Britain, but it's being failed by a lack of funding. Privatising services within it isn't helping matters. The NHS is on its knees due to lack of funding and a Tory desire for it not to exist. They would rather see it fail so the rich have good health care and the poor are left wanting. If we hadn't had the Tony's in power for the past 13 years the NHS would be very different.

I know this isn't relevant to the case but i can't stand the NHS as a whole being blamed. It's not that simple.

It is unbelievably hard to fathom that a NICU nurse could do it. Personally, I received great care from OB nurses here in the US. I am now realizing that LL's case might be emotionally the most difficult one.

 

[marynnu]

I haven't yet caught up and I'm sure that others who have been NHS nurses would have responded already, but nurses choose to be nurses because that's the job they want. They don't care about "prestige" or "better pay" they care about their patients. I am not a nurse, but my children have spent a lot of time in hospital and nurses are unsung heros. They're the ones who are on hand, who know their patients best. They deserve better pay because the job they do warrants it. Many nurses don't want to be doctors because it would take them away from the hands on care that they enjoy and that they're good at.

The NHS is in a bad way, but in my view that's not because of the way it's structured, it's because our government aren't investing enough in to it. The NHS is one of the greatest achievements of Britain, but it's being failed by a lack of funding. Privatising services within it isn't helping matters. The NHS is on its knees due to lack of funding and a Tory desire for it not to exist. They would rather see it fail so the rich have good health care and the poor are left wanting. If we hadn't had the Tony's in power for the past 13 years the NHS would be very different.

I know this isn't relevant to the case but i can't stand the NHS as a whole being blamed. It's not that simple.

I couldn't agree more. Staff perform minor miracles every day under enormous pressure.

 

[Charlot123]

And if she didn't want or need that, why on earth would she bring them home, or if that was unintentional, why on earth would she not return them, or at least destroy them? Especially as she had a shredder right there.

Was it her "collection"? Did she view it as such?

 

[marynnu]

Be kind to me Dotta, all these initials and acronyms can sometimes be just too much for my poor old brain!

You think that's bad. NNU staff can have a whole conversation like this, barely saying a full word.

 

[Dotta]

You think that's bad. NNU staff can have a whole conversation like this, barely saying a full word.

Haha
In my job "roll of the eyes" is sufficient. Or a quirk of the mouth or a brow.
We perfectly understand one another without uttering a word.

 

[Dotta]

If LL is guilty...

I guess she used the ideas from:

- AE: BBC programme she watched about its dangers

- insuline poisoning: Stepping Hill murders trial at this time

- using "long lines" just after she finished training

It reminds me of TV "Police Chronicles" programme in my country which enraged Police b/c it gave criminals ideas.

But I think that (alleged) sadistic variations might have been her idea!

JMO

 

[marynnu]

If LL is guilty...

I guess she used the ideas from:

- AE: BBC programme she watched about its dangers

- insuline poisoning: Stepping Hill murders trial at this time

- using "long lines" just after she finished training

It reminds me of TV "Police Chronicles" programme in my country which enraged Police b/c it gave criminals ideas.

But I think that (alleged) sadistic variations might have been her idea!

JMO

It's also interesting to me that she finished her neonatal nursing course March 2015, just around when all these incidents started. How I'd love to know the opinions of the tutors and staff at Liverpool!

 

[JosieJo]

It's also interesting to me that she finished her neonatal nursing course March 2015, just around when all these incidents started. How I'd love to know the opinions of the tutors and staff at Liverpool!

I do wonder if this had some bearing on her frustration..even anger at times ..about not being in room 1.
She may have had high hopes of being a "super nurse" when she completed the course.
But in reality she was still just one of many with the course on the unit and had to take her turn in the less critical nurseries

 

[katydid23]

The only one for the whole unit? No second nurse or doctor? No one else? The only one per all babies?

Surely one can't run an ICU unit with only one caregiver? And what if she fainted, for example? So ICU would be left with no one?

It's like equipping a passenger airplane with just one pilot instead of two.

I didn't explain it clearly, sorry.

Nurse Letby was the only nurse that was present, on the unit, during all 22 incidents, where a baby had an unexplained collapse.

There were other co-workers on the unit, obviously. But none of the other co-workers were present at all of the incidents except for Nurse Letby.

I think they said that the most incidents that other nurses were there for were 7. None had anywhere as many as 22.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

If LL is guilty...

I guess she used the ideas from:

- AE: BBC programme she watched about its dangers

- insuline poisoning: Stepping Hill murders trial at this time

- using "long lines" just after she finished training

It reminds me of TV "Police Chronicles" programme in my country which enraged Police b/c it gave criminals ideas.

But I think that (alleged) sadistic variations might have been her idea!

JMO

I think we might all have been struggling for a motive.

One possible reason that occured to me, if guilty, is that, besides being emotionally numb, Ms Letby could, perhaps, have saved a life at some point, prior to the alleged attacks.

Do we have any information that might support this theory?

Because it seems somewhat logical, that having saved a life, having essentially brought a child back from death, that the person might A) subsequently develop a god complex, and B) feel aggrieved that their life saving endeavours were not fawned over for very long, and that things at the unit quickly went back to business as usual.

Imagine that, having been an only child, having dedicated oneself to nursing since high school, having been the first from her family to go to uni, having completed so many courses etc. and now having saved a life - when nothing was mentioned on the news, nor on social media, and the parents of this theoretical child stay didn't stay in touch, or failed to reach out, that something broke in the accused's mind.

Just look at the kudos that is distributed all over social media for benal, insipid acts of typicality, and it becomes clear just how overlooked the actions of a life saving nurse are.

It's hardly likely, in this theoretical scenario, that Ms Letby would have gone onto facebook and made a post about how she had saved a life - that just seems crass and ingenuine.
So, what then could she have done, other than felt let down by the world around her for failing to realise her saintly action? Perhaps a downward spiral ensued..



An answer Ms Letby gives, that stands out to me is "I was always on my phone."
While this does not a murderer maketh, it is concerning that the person who admits to this could, possibly be living in some kind of paradoxical universe.
It might seem normal in this day and age, but being commonplace and normal are not to be confused.
Constantly being inundated by social media posts, and essentially being addicted to a hand held device is very dangerous, and certainly can do untold negative things to a person's mental health, invisible to those around us.

It's a big problem which, being such a modern phenomenon, is only slowly rearing its ugly head.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I get what you are saying but no I am not. I really have been looking for anything at all that would leave me no doubt that this young woman had indeed been deceiving the entire work place, had been concealing her tracks, was aware that if she did do this there will most likely be serious consequences, had at least an inkling that if she murders kids expect something but more reasonably expect the full weight of the law against her. But no I’m left with making a choice between the med evidence in all its complexities and her own output think of it what you will. I really really absolutely would like something that gives me a nudge but No I’m left with just understanding how difficult this will be for the jury. Possibly.
totally agree though if guilty she as far from the average murderer one could possibly be.

I don't think anyone ever reaches the level of 'no doubt.' There is always going to be a few loose ends and a few questions.

But you have to balance it with the amount of known proven evidence against the defendant. When that is way way way more than the scattered doubts remaining, then you are beyond a reasonable doubt.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is not the same thing as 'no doubt.'

If you are seeing things like there is only one nurse who was present for all of the attacks, and the collapses never happened when she went on her vacations, but there'd be three in a row on the day she returned. And they were all at night when she worked the night shift but they began to happpen during the day when she switched to day shift. And they stopped altogether when she left the unit.

But the remaining doubts are things like if she lied about the shredder or why she didn't dispose of the handover sheets, then it seems insignificant in the balance, IMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I haven't yet caught up and I'm sure that others who have been NHS nurses would have responded already, but nurses choose to be nurses because that's the job they want. They don't care about "prestige" or "better pay" they care about their patients. I am not a nurse, but my children have spent a lot of time in hospital and nurses are unsung heros. They're the ones who are on hand, who know their patients best. They deserve better pay because the job they do warrants it. Many nurses don't want to be doctors because it would take them away from the hands on care that they enjoy and that they're good at.

The NHS is in a bad way, but in my view that's not because of the way it's structured, it's because our government aren't investing enough in to it. The NHS is one of the greatest achievements of Britain, but it's being failed by a lack of funding. Privatising services within it isn't helping matters. The NHS is on its knees due to lack of funding and a Tory desire for it not to exist. They would rather see it fail so the rich have good health care and the poor are left wanting. If we hadn't had the Tony's in power for the past 13 years the NHS would be very different.

I know this isn't relevant to the case but i can't stand the NHS as a whole being blamed. It's not that simple.

I have two close friends who are nurses and they do the jobs they're in without seeking promotion or higher pay grades etc because they work in their preferred areas of interest. For their own personal reasons they are satisfied with their positions and enjoy the job role they're in, find it interesting and enjoy interacting with the patients, they don't want to be higher up or do a different role. I think this is a reasonable way to live. JMO MOO

*I do agree everyone should be paid a fair and decent wage, that's not what I'm speaking to here.

 

[ColourPurple]

It's also interesting to me that she finished her neonatal nursing course March 2015, just around when all these incidents started. How I'd love to know the opinions of the tutors and staff at Liverpool!

According to this article she did more than one NNU placement there, which might explain the references to her doing ICU training there in 2013 and in 2015.


A spokesperson at the Liverpool Women's trust confirmed Ms Letby undertook training at the hospital and said the trust was assisting with police enquiries...

A spokesperson for Liverpool Women's Hospital Trust said: "We are co-operating with police as part of their investigation which includes a routine review of patients cared for on our neonatal unit during the time of these placements.

Lucy Letby's training hospital helping police with baby death probe

The former University of Chester student trained at Liverpool Women's Hospital

www.cheshire-live.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I didn't explain it clearly, sorry.

Nurse Letby was the only nurse that was present, on the unit, during all 22 incidents, where a baby had an unexplained collapse.

There were other co-workers on the unit, obviously. But none of the other co-workers were present at all of the incidents except for Nurse Letby.

I think they said that the most incidents that other nurses were there for were 7. None had anywhere as many as 22.

In terms of the statistics

I appreciate it is calculated that LL is the only person that was there for all 22 incidents (allegedly) and the average being 7.

However, this could easily be explained by her being a consistent member of staff day in day out when agency staff or incompetent staff or trainees were passing through and in a high churn / turnover. If the transient staff were making a variety of errors, it would still look like LL is the common denominator. So for me, this argument doesn't work too well.

 

[ColourPurple]

If LL is guilty...

I guess she used the ideas from:

- AE: BBC programme she watched about its dangers

- insuline poisoning: Stepping Hill murders trial at this time

- using "long lines" just after she finished training

It reminds me of TV "Police Chronicles" programme in my country which enraged Police b/c it gave criminals ideas.

But I think that (alleged) sadistic variations might have been her idea!

JMO

Is there another BBC programe that she watched where air embolism was featured. I ask, as the "An hour to save your life" programme that she watched doesn't metnion air embolism at all.

It does include references to how excess air in the stomach can lead to the baby eventually suffocating as its lungs are squashed (though the baby in question had a medical condition which meant their stomach was higher up in the chest area) and there was also a baby with a dislodged breathing tube, and parents talking about how important a step, being able to take their baby home is... but no mentions of air embolism.

 

[Dotta]

It does include references to how excess air in the stomach can lead to the baby eventually suffocating as its lungs are squashed (though the baby in question had a medical condition which meant their stomach was higher up in the chest area) and there was also a baby with a dislodged breathing tube, and parents talking about how important a step, being able to take their baby home is... but no mentions of air embolism.

Wow!
Ready ideas

As for AE I distinctly remember her mentioning it in her text about a TV programme.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

In terms of the statistics

I appreciate it is calculated that LL is the only person that was there for all 22 incidents (allegedly) and the average being 7.

However, this could easily be explained by her being a consistent member of staff day in day out when agency staff or incompetent staff or trainees were passing through and in a high churn / turnover. If the transient staff were making a variety of errors, it would still look like LL is the common denominator. So for me, this argument doesn't work too well.

All staff working with these babies have been named and accounted for in the babies' records, not just at the times of their deaths/collapses but in the days leading up to them. There are no unknown agency or trainee nurses who were caring for them.

 

[ColourPurple]

I think we might all have been struggling for a motive.

One possible reason that occured to me, if guilty, is that, besides being emotionally numb, Ms Letby could, perhaps, have saved a life at some point, prior to the alleged attacks.

Do we have any information that might support this theory?

Because it seems somewhat logical, that having saved a life, having essentially brought a child back from death, that the person might A) subsequently develop a god complex, and B) feel aggrieved that their life saving endeavours were not fawned over for very long, and that things at the unit quickly went back to business as usual.

Imagine that, having been an only child, having dedicated oneself to nursing since high school, having been the first from her family to go to uni, having completed so many courses etc. and now having saved a life - when nothing was mentioned on the news, nor on social media, and the parents of this theoretical child stay didn't stay in touch, or failed to reach out, that something broke in the accused's mind.

Just look at the kudos that is distributed all over social media for benal, insipid acts of typicality, and it becomes clear just how overlooked the actions of a life saving nurse are.

It's hardly likely, in this theoretical scenario, that Ms Letby would have gone onto facebook and made a post about how she had saved a life - that just seems crass and ingenuine.
So, what then could she have done, other than felt let down by the world around her for failing to realise her saintly action? Perhaps a downward spiral ensued..


JMO

She's made references to witnessing babies deaths at Liverpool Women's hospital where she did her ICU training. So if guilty, she may have enjoyed some aspect of the deaths and the attempted resus' at Liverpool. And so decided to recreate them at Chester. With the longline training she completed in May, providing her with a method she thought would be undetectable. IMO, if guilty.