UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #20

[Tortoise]

15 mystery deaths so why they all not included on the chart?
I guess ll couldn't have been implicated but it would open the door for others been on more shifts when babies mysteriously died.
BM saying it's a self serving chart is so right imo

15 mystery deaths is not an accurate statement. It's a sensationalist headline.

"Detective Chief Superintendent Nigel Wenham said: “In May 2017, The Countess of Chester Hospital Foundation Trust contacted Cheshire Constabulary regarding neonatal services at the hospital.

"This was in relation to a greater number of baby deaths and collapses than normally expected during the period of June 2015 and June 2016.

“The hospital also made the Constabulary aware of a number of independent reviews that they had commissioned into these deaths.

He added: “As a result, Cheshire Constabulary has launched an investigation, which will focus on the deaths of eight babies that occurred between that period where medical practitioners have expressed concern.

“In addition the investigation will also conduct a review of a further seven baby deaths and six non-fatal collapses during the same period."

Mystery deaths of 15 babies at hospital being probed by police

Since the investigation uncovered seven suspicious deaths, it can't be called self-serving. Why do you think they would include explainable deaths that have nothing to do with the allegations against LL?

 

[esther43]

Perhaps it's some really misguided defence strategy in that she thinks that admitting to any psychological problem or illness is going to be more likely to see her convicted?

Hmmm.. but she didn't seem to have an issue admitting to having a problem holding on to the handwritten notes? so I'm thinking that if she had the same problem with the handover notes, she'd just say so.

 

[Tortoise]

When Mr Myers said the document was self-serving he was not referring to other deaths on the unit not included in the document.

here is the reporting

"The list on nursing staff on duty for all the fatal and non-fatal collapses, with Letby on duty for all events, is shown again to the court.
"This table exists because the prosecution created it, and was put together for the purpose of the prosecution."It was to show what were declared to be key events.
"This is a self-serving document. What we have here is because the prosecution have chosen to present it this way."

The defence says it does not show the 'individual health of the children concerned, or any problems they had from birth, or the risks, or the course of treatment and/or problems encountered by said treatment'.

The chart does not show 'other collapses or desaturations' for the children when Letby is not present.

The table does not show 'shortcomings in care' which 'could have impacted the health of the baby', or 'how busy the unit was', or 'what Letby was actually doing at the time of the event', My Myers tells the court.

It doesn't show 'whether Lucy Letby was anywhere near to a child at the time of the event' or if there was 'a problem which could be traced before Letby's arrival'."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement


- Babies health prior to collapse/previous desaturations
- standards of care
- what LL was doing at the time/where she was

All of these things have been covered during the trial.

These are not matters ignored by the prosecution, or left out of the trial.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Hmmm.. but she didn't seem to have an issue admitting to having a problem holding on to the handwritten notes? so I'm thinking that if she had the same problem with the handover notes, she'd just say so.

She said something along the lines of "I don't like to throw things away". Lots of people are like that. That's very different to acquiring and keeping confidential work documents that she absolutely should not have to begin with.

 

[esther43]

She said something along the lines of "I don't like to throw things away". Lots of people are like that. That's very different to acquiring and keeping confidential work documents that she absolutely should not have to begin with.

I suppose I can see what you are saying, if looking at it through the lens of an innocent person, they would not relate the two things in their mind.

 

[Dotta]

In the witness box

https://twitter.com/x/status/1655622118359412755

 

[Sweeper2000]

I thought she described the 14ml thing as a typo, not an oversight.

My next question on that would be whether there would be any benefit to understating it. For example, if there’s a requirement for calling a doc immediately if 15ml or above. If not though, then it could well just be a typo..

You are correct the 14ml was a typo and the shredder an oversight.

im the opposite I think if the shredder was new and more or less unused she wouldn’t have any reason to have a memory log of it.

I don’t trust everything she is saying at all, I’ve said it many times. Anything that would give an indication she is lying would be fan blooming tastic.

 

[Becci]

15 mystery deaths is not an accurate statement. It's a sensationalist headline.

"Detective Chief Superintendent Nigel Wenham said: “In May 2017, The Countess of Chester Hospital Foundation Trust contacted Cheshire Constabulary regarding neonatal services at the hospital.

"This was in relation to a greater number of baby deaths and collapses than normally expected during the period of June 2015 and June 2016.

“The hospital also made the Constabulary aware of a number of independent reviews that they had commissioned into these deaths.

He added: “As a result, Cheshire Constabulary has launched an investigation, which will focus on the deaths of eight babies that occurred between that period where medical practitioners have expressed concern.

“In addition the investigation will also conduct a review of a further seven baby deaths and six non-fatal collapses during the same period."

Mystery deaths of 15 babies at hospital being probed by police

Since the investigation uncovered seven suspicious deaths, it can't be called self-serving. Why do you think they would include explainable deaths that have nothing to do with the allegations against LL?

Given the fact that at least 15 premature babies died & the main evidence is ll been there, then i think a chart that includes everything would be handy to see if any other patterns emerge.
Bare in mind that these were all a mystery at some point.
The consultants were suspicious very early on
& the main people in charge with reviewing everything have had long careers within the nhs.
Also yeah BM weren't referring actually to this but what he say's is true i think.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Sweeper ..this has been covered In depth..the mum would not see anyone as she would be buzzed in

There is no record of people in and out

A nurse who opens the door at the desk when buzzer goes would just just glance up ..see its a mum in nightie and dressing gown and press the switch...not a chance of remembering who came in when

My point remains from 8 pm to 10 pm there was a layer cake of opportunities for someone or something to have a log of seeing her or recording her presence. I do get what everyone is saying but just miffed those opportunities were missed.
that is all on that point.

 

[Tortoise]

Given the fact that at least 15 premature babies died & the main evidence is ll been there, then i think a chart that includes everything would be handy to see if any other patterns emerge.
Bare in mind that these were all a mystery at some point.
The consultants were suspicious very early on
& the main people in charge with reviewing everything have had long careers within the nhs.
Also yeah BM weren't referring actually to this but what he say's is true i think.

Why are you concerned with explained deaths that the treating consultants weren't concerned about, the experts weren't concerned about, the police weren't concerned about and most significantly her defence team aren't concerned about?

 

[Anxala]

You are correct the 14ml was a typo and the shredder an oversight.

im the opposite I think if the shredder was new and more or less unused she wouldn’t have any reason to have a memory log of it.

I don’t trust everything she is saying at all, I’ve said it many times. Anything that would give an indication she is lying would be fan blooming tastic.

She lied about the shredder and then, completely changing her stance, went on to lie about the significance of the handover notes. Those are facts. I also feel there's considerable evidence to suggest that she's lying about other aspects of this case, most specifically BabyE and the events of that evening. And it kind of grieves me that you won't just let that lie and accept and respect BabyE's mother's version of events, instead of continuing to look for reasons to doubt her.

With respect, Sweeper, and I say this as someone still very much on the fence as far as LL is concerned, I don't think you're doing her any favours by denying known facts.

Her lying doesn't make her guilty of what she's been accused of. It's ok to acknowledge that LL has lied along the way. It's really ok.

 

[Becci]

Basically it would be intriguing to see whether ll was present when other babies who are not involved in this case passed away.
Im been nosey

Why are you concerned with explained deaths that the treating consultants weren't concerned about, the experts weren't concerned about, the police weren't concerned about and most significantly her defence team aren't concerned about?

 

[Becci]

& the defence might mention it or would it have already been mentioned?

 

[WaxLyrical]

She lied about the shredder and then, completely changing her stance, went on to lie about the significance of the handover notes. Those are facts. I also feel she's lying about other aspects of this case.

With respect, Sweeper, and I say this as someone still very much on the fence as far as LL is concerned, I don't think you're doing her any favours by denying known facts.

Her lying doesn't make her guilty. It's ok to acknowledge that what we're hearing from her is her version of the truth.

She does appear to have lied about the shredder.

I really do think the significance of the handover notes depends on the timescales they spanned from. If those 257 notes were going back to 2010, then it’s become so commonplace to her to take them home on occasion that’s she’s completely desensitised to the fact they are ultimately confidential documents. Almost as though she sees them as no more sensitive that a simple rota document. This would also explain why she never bothered to shred them, she didn’t care about them enough. And was defensive when questioned by police. A bank statement, it has the potential to yield an identify theft, but it’s possible she just didn’t attribute the same level of risk to the handover docs. I’m speculating. I’m fully aware nurses know they are not supposed to take these docs home, and I’m not disputing that, Letby was well aware.

If those docs relate to several years, and it transpires all the docs relating to the relevant 2015/16 period were contained within this Morrisons/Ibiza bags (ie the ‘work bag’ explanation), then her explanation does not sound unreasonable to me. Certain types of shift might be more hectic than others (such as the shifts in question) and therefore less likely to empty pockets etc.

On the other hand, if all 257 handover sheets relate to 2015/16, then I think that’s very problematic indeed. As it would mean she again lied to police about how often she was bringing them home, possibly only started bringing them home when the deaths started, and would also suggest some kind of categorisation, with piles found in different places and the relevant cases all found within one pile.

JMO.

 

[esther43]

Why are you concerned with explained deaths that the treating consultants weren't concerned about, the experts weren't concerned about, the police weren't concerned about and most significantly her defence team aren't concerned about?

Judging by the inclusion criteria it would be incorrect to assume that there were were more unexpected deaths associated with the CoC neonatal unit than the 10 referenced.
Also, to be clear, if a baby is transferred to a another unit and dies there, the death gets marked against the hospital the baby was 'booked into'
Also, this data includes cot deaths and any babies who died on the children's ward in the first 28 days of life not just neonatal.
Finally, the independent report references a larger number of deaths than were included in the investigation but it only references these in relation to examining escalation methods and processes, not because they were suspicious or related to CoC NNU' directly. It was an exploration of the over arching health boards approach, crossing multiple specialisms.
Jmo

 

[Tortoise]

Basically it would be intriguing to see whether ll was present when other babies who are not involved in this case passed away.
Im been nosey

& the defence might mention it or would it have already been mentioned?

It's got nothing to do with the trial, and bringing it up during the trial, from time to time, seems to be to suggest that the prosecution are hiding information that would show this is not a fair or impartial trial.

It is not the defence case that there are other suspicious deaths that have been left off the indictment because LL wasn't there. Yes it would be a very prominent feature of her defence if that was the case. It would have been her main defence, a bombshell revelation to match the prosecution's revelation of her note "I am evil I did this, I killed them on purpose". Babies dying of air embolisms excluded from the trial against Letby because the prosecution just went after a scapegoat.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

She does appear to have lied about the shredder.

I really do think the significance of the handover notes depends on the timescales they spanned from. If those 257 notes were going back to 2010, then it’s become so commonplace to her to take them home on occasion that’s she’s completely desensitised to the fact they are ultimately confidential documents. Almost as though she sees them as no more sensitive that a simple rota document. This would also explain why she never bothered to shred them, she didn’t care about them enough. And was defensive when questioned by police. A bank statement, it has the potential to yield an identify theft, but it’s possible she just didn’t attribute the same level of risk to the handover docs. I’m speculating. I’m fully aware nurses know they are not supposed to take these docs home, and I’m not disputing that, Letby was well aware.

If those docs relate to several years, and it transpires all the docs relating to the relevant 2015/16 period were contained within this Morrisons/Ibiza bags (ie the ‘work bag’ explanation), then her explanation does not sound unreasonable to me. Certain types of shift might be more hectic than others (such as the shifts in question) and therefore less likely to empty pockets etc.

On the other hand, if all 257 handover sheets relate to 2015/16, then I think that’s very problematic indeed. As it would mean she again lied to police about how often she was bringing them home, possibly only started bringing them home when the deaths started, and would also suggest some kind of categorisation, with piles found in different places and the relevant cases all found within one pile.

JMO.

all of this.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Mr Myers has on numerous occasions asked dr evans if he was chopping and changing to fit the allegations. Dr evans response was that this is what doctors do as new evidence becomes available. As one example he did not know about the skin rash for baby a but it solidified his opinion as he learnt it. He also used it to further the credibility of his diagnosis, as in he still thought AE before being aware of the skin discolouration.

 

[ShireChe]

Mr Myers has on numerous occasions asked dr evans if he was chopping and changing to fit the allegations. Dr evans response was that this is what doctors do as new evidence becomes available. As one example he did not know about the skin rash for baby a but it solidified his opinion as he learnt it. He also used it to further the credibility of his diagnosis, as in he still thought AE before being aware of the skin discolouration.

I think it's possible to believe that a prosecution may avoid raising things and amend things which weaken their case, just as the the defence will do the same. Now it doesn't mean the prosecution have got it wrong overall by any means.

 

[marynnu]

She does appear to have lied about the shredder.

I really do think the significance of the handover notes depends on the timescales they spanned from. If those 257 notes were going back to 2010, then it’s become so commonplace to her to take them home on occasion that’s she’s completely desensitised to the fact they are ultimately confidential documents. Almost as though she sees them as no more sensitive that a simple rota document. This would also explain why she never bothered to shred them, she didn’t care about them enough. And was defensive when questioned by police. A bank statement, it has the potential to yield an identify theft, but it’s possible she just didn’t attribute the same level of risk to the handover docs. I’m speculating. I’m fully aware nurses know they are not supposed to take these docs home, and I’m not disputing that, Letby was well aware.

If those docs relate to several years, and it transpires all the docs relating to the relevant 2015/16 period were contained within this Morrisons/Ibiza bags (ie the ‘work bag’ explanation), then her explanation does not sound unreasonable to me. Certain types of shift might be more hectic than others (such as the shifts in question) and therefore less likely to empty pockets etc.

On the other hand, if all 257 handover sheets relate to 2015/16, then I think that’s very problematic indeed. As it would mean she again lied to police about how often she was bringing them home, possibly only started bringing them home when the deaths started, and would also suggest some kind of categorisation, with piles found in different places and the relevant cases all found within one pile.

JMO.

To be honest I don't buy into any of this. No matter which way you look at it there were 257 documents which should never have left the hospital and are simple to dispose of. She knew this. When they relate to is neither here nor there. JMO.