UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

[Blondiexoxo]

Does anyone know which page of the last thread the chart was which showed each of the babies, birth dates, death / collapse dates, age at time of collapse etc? I’m sure I remember it being posted on the last thread and wondered if it could be brought over if possible please?

It’s interesting to look at as it shows the interval between each collapse, and also shows that the large majority of the babies weren’t actually very premature atall. Most above 30 weeks and from what I recall many were in cots not incubators. From my baby being in neonatal I remember the day she ‘graduated’ from an incubator to a cot. This only happens when they are improving and well enough, if the babies were in cots, breathing air with no added oxygen etc like in incubators then it proves the prosecution case even more that these babies were thriving and should not have collapsed or died. The defense try to paint these babies as poorly and premature, when the evidence shows they were doing very well and some were close to going home.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I can see where the confusion lies.

Within the context of the full sentence, it could be misinterpreted to mean that handover documents were not limited to that period of time. The word “including” is not particularly helpful, in terms of clarifying when the handover sheets relate to.

However, for what it’s worth, this report does appear to definitively state that over 250 handover sheets were found which relate to shifts Ms Letby worked between June 2015 and June 2016.

This doesn’t look good from a defence point of view.
How anyone can possibly explain accidentally or mistakenly/unwittingly taking and keeping virtually every handover sheet home for an entire year is baffling.

JMO

The more I think about it, the more I’m starting to wonder if it was a kind of selection process, if guilty. Looking over the notes and selecting which babies would rouse less suspicion by suddenly collapsing..

In some of her texts to colleagues she would mention possible causes for deaths such as ‘overwhelming sepsis’. I’d be interested to know exactly what information was on the handover sheets she had kept. Did any have something like ‘query sepsis?’ for example. If guilty, using handover notes to choose babies who had something like a poor blood gas reading on the previous night for example, could make sense if she was wanting to stay undetected. She could then say to colleagues ‘he had a bad blood gas last night and blood sugars were a bit low’ etc… if guilty.
All MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

if her shift patterns is four on four off that’s 182 days or shifts plus overtime. 257 handover sheets though. Depending on how much overtime she actually did might give an implication that they do actually cover more than a year. I find it difficult to believe she did that much overtime but not sure.

 

[Kemug]

The more I think about it, the more I’m starting to wonder if it was a kind of selection process, if guilty. Looking over the notes and selecting which babies would rouse less suspicion by suddenly collapsing..

Or, if guilty, could she have thought "Oh, he's probably going home tomorrow, so I'll have to see to him tonight, while he's still here"? Absolutely diabolical if so. But of course, only if guilty.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

The more I think about it, the more I’m starting to wonder if it was a kind of selection process, if guilty. Looking over the notes and selecting which babies would rouse less suspicion by suddenly collapsing..

In some of her texts to colleagues she would mention possible causes for deaths such as ‘overwhelming sepsis’. I’d be interested to know exactly what information was on the handover sheets she had kept. Did any have something like ‘query sepsis?’ for example. If guilty, using handover notes to choose babies who had something like a poor blood gas reading on the previous night for example, could make sense if she was wanting to stay undetected. She could then say to colleagues ‘he had a bad blood gas last night and blood sugars were a bit low’ etc… if guilty.
All MOO

IF guilty, I would imagine that the attacker might be acutely aware of the condition of each potential target. If not acutely, then adequately aware enough, to make the selection process somewhat of a foregone conclusion.
I, personally, would not have thought the study of handover sheets, or any other kind of homework, would be remotely necessary.
For me, the amassing of such a large amount of confidential documents just proves that the accused was content with failing to observe proper procedure, and points heavily toward an attitude of believing themself to be above the law.

JMO

 

[Xanadu62]

"A handover sheet for June 28, 2016 is shown which, the court hears, is outside the indictment period so no names of babies are shown to the court on this document. The court hears there is handwriting on the rear of this note, which mentions Child O, and again the document features medical observations and notes." - Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, April 17

I also find it strange that they also found handover notes from 28th June at home, which was AFTER the call she received on 27th June from Eirean Powell (see excerpt below) where she was worried she might be in trouble. So she was worried they thought she'd done something wrong and STILL took the handover note home the day after? And even wrote about child O on it, so was 100% aware she had the note. There seems to be a real disconnect in her understanding of right and wrong, and just doing what she wants.

We know from police interviews that she was aware handover notes were supposed to be destroyed in the Confidential bin at work, so her lack of care in disposing of these even after knowing she was under review is conscious rule breaking IMO.

Lucy Letby 'worried' she was 'in trouble' over baby deaths

LUCY LETBY messaged a nursing colleague: "If they have nothing or minimal on me they'll look silly" during a Countess of Chester Hospital…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

On June 27, 2016, Letby messaged a doctor colleague at 5.41pm: "Eirian [Lloyd Powell, neonatal unit manager] has just phoned telling me not to come in tonight & do days instead. I asked if there was a problem & she said No, just trying to protect me a bit & we can have a chat about it tomorrow but now I'm worried."

Letby also messaged a nursing colleague at the same time: "E just phoned telling me to do days this week and not Go in tonight as trying to protect me."
After the nursing colleague asked: "What's that mean?", Letby replied: "I don't know. Asked if there was a problem and she said No just trying to protect me as had a difficult run just before holidays, less people on nights etc and we can have a chat etc tomorrow.

"But Im worried Im in trouble or something." BBM

The nurse colleague replied: "Don't worry, how can you be in trouble you haven't done anything wrong.

"Just very unfortunate."

Letby: "I know but worrying in case they think i missed something or whatever. Why leave it til now to ring."

MOO.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

If guilty it seems to have become a compulsion by the time LL was moved to admin IMO.

O P and Q each being only a day apart, if guilty, show such brazenness and lack of awareness it’s almost asif she didn’t even care at that point, aslong as the mission was completed. If guilty.
MOO

What do others think of the rapid succession of O P and Q? If I recall E and F were only a day apart too which stands out as they were twins, O and P were 2 triplets. It suggests she may have been wanting to cause maximum pain for the parents, if guilty.

 

[Marantz4250b]

"A handover sheet for June 28, 2016 is shown which, the court hears, is outside the indictment period so no names of babies are shown to the court on this document. The court hears there is handwriting on the rear of this note, which mentions Child O, and again the document features medical observations and notes." - Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, April 17

I also find it strange that they also found handover notes from 28th June at home, which was AFTER the call she received on 27th June from Eirean Powell (see excerpt below) where she was worried she might be in trouble. So she was worried they thought she'd done something wrong and STILL took the handover note home the day after? And even wrote about child O on it, so was 100% aware she had the note. There seems to be a real disconnect in her understanding of right and wrong, and just doing what she wants.

I hadn't realised she was still taking them home even after she thought her conduct may have been being investigated! It's fairly shocking, to say the least.

I'm actually at a loss as to what to think about it, tbh. Yes, it could very well mean that she's completely lost all concept of right and wrong (not to mention any sense of personal peril) but it could still be some strange compulsion that has become completely unmanageable to her? Similar to the alcoholic who knows that drinking a bottle of vodka a day is a really, really bad idea but who just can't stop.

MOO, obvs.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

if her shift patterns is four on four off that’s 182 days or shifts plus overtime. 257 handover sheets though. Depending on how much overtime she actually did might give an implication that they do actually cover more than a year. I find it difficult to believe she did that much overtime but not sure.

Assuming her shifts were three x 12.5hr per week, the only logical explanation for the sheer number of notes amassed, would be that there were seperate handover notes for each baby.

In any case, Ms Letby appears to have, potentially, kept every handover note from every shift worked during that timeframe. Which isn't a great look.



JMO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I hadn't realised she was still taking them home even after she thought her conduct may have been being investigated! It's fairly shocking, to say the least.

I'm actually at a loss as to what to think about it, tbh. Yes, it could very well mean that she's completely lost all concept of right and wrong (not to mention any sense of personal peril) but it could still be some strange compulsion that has become completely unmanageable to her? Similar to the alcoholic who knows that drinking a bottle of vodka a day is a really, really bad idea but who just can't stop.

MOO, obvs.

It’s completely bizzare that she was still taking them home even after she knew questions were being asked. Surely she can’t have ‘accidentally’ taken 257 handover sheets home? Personally, I think it was a compulsion, especially with babies O P and Q if guilty. Kind of like being on a diet and knowing that you shouldn’t have a piece of cake but having it anyway and telling yourself ‘just this last piece then I’ll stop tomorrow’. Exactly the way you describe an alcoholic, one who tells themselves ‘just one more drink’.
IMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

if her shift patterns is four on four off that’s 182 days or shifts plus overtime. 257 handover sheets though. Depending on how much overtime she actually did might give an implication that they do actually cover more than a year. I find it difficult to believe she did that much overtime but not sure.

If she had every handover note for a year then she’d have dozens of handover notes for the 100 day old baby alone.

The fact is, no other outlets reported that these 257 notes were all from the year concerned apart from the mail online.

I think it’s a reporting error.

 

[Sweeper2000]

If she had every handover note for a year then she’d have dozens of handover notes for the 100 day old baby alone.

The fact is, no other outlets reported that these 257 notes were all from the year concerned apart from the mail online.

I think it’s a reporting error.

I totally get what you are getting at now. Did you have those figures already? I didn’t get that til tortoise posted the deets. Plenty of reasons to think that’s a reporting error now.
props to t.

eta. Isn’t it strange that a key piece of the prosecutions evidence we still have so many questions about but I don’t know if the blanks were left out of reporting.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Assuming her shifts were three x 12.5hr per week, the only logical explanation for the sheer number of notes amassed, would be that there were seperate handover notes for each baby.

In any case, Ms Letby appears to have, potentially, kept every handover note from every shift worked during that timeframe. Which isn't a great look.



JMO

There wasn’t separate handover sheets for each baby. They had to redact the names of the babies who don’t feature on the case when showing the jury the handover notes for the triplets.

 

[Sweeper2000]

There wasn’t separate handover sheets for each baby. They had to redact the names of the babies who don’t feature on the case when showing the jury the handover notes for the triplets.

So technically the handover sheets may contain the names of babs in the charges but they are not even necessarily from the times ll was the dn?

think I just figured it out. That article is actually quite ambiguou but not sure about the timings. I’m almost sure the prosecution would have mentioned if these handovers were from important dates within The charges. So the thirteen sheets in the Morrison’s bag relating to the charges might not be so implicative after all especially if they are not from the shifts in which she was the dn.

 

[JamesMcGillEsquire]

There wasn’t separate handover sheets for each baby. They had to redact the names of the babies who don’t feature on the case when showing the jury the handover notes for the triplets.

Thank you for the clarification. Appreciated.

How on earth have 257 handover notes been amassed for a 13 month period then?

 

[katydid23]

Thank you for the clarification. Appreciated.

How on earth have 257 handover notes been amassed for a 13 month period then?

That would mean about 20 per month? >>>>20x13=260...

She probably worked about 20 days each month. That's about 5 days a week? So maybe it was over a 14 month period?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Thank you for the clarification. Appreciated.

How on earth have 257 handover notes been amassed for a 13 month period then?

As someone has alluded to above, its probably highly likely that these notes extend back much further back than the year'ish than the allegations cover. She'd have to be doing some serious overtime to amass that many, surely.

I was thinking; is there a limit to the number of hours/shifts a nurse is allowed to work or whether they have to have a certain time between shifts. Sort of the way HGV drivers or pilots have to work?

 

[marynnu]

That would mean about 20 per month? >>>>20x13=260...

She probably worked about 20 days each month. That's about 5 days a week? So maybe it was over a 14 month period?

What about holidays though?

 

[Sweeper2000]

As someone has alluded to above, its probably highly likely that these notes extend back much further back than the year'ish than the allegations cover. She'd have to be doing some serious overtime to amass that many, surely.

I was thinking; is there a limit to the number of hours/shifts a nurse is allowed to work or whether they have to have a certain time between shifts. Sort of the way HGV drivers or pilots have to work?

Lol were we still in the eu at this time? I know if you did more than the 40 hr week you had to sign a waiver.

 

[Bethan]

Thank you for the clarification. Appreciated.

How on earth have 257 handover notes been amassed for a 13 month period then?

Not accidentally, I’m sure of that!