UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

[esther43]

I'm interested in the handover note with details of baby P on which I thought was dated 28th June.
She said today that she wrote P's details on handover sheet and agreed this was after her trip to A&E on 24th June.
The fact she found an even older handover sheet in the fridge does not appear to explain this.

 

[Marantz4250b]

So we could suggest then; in 5 years she didn’t know how to appropriately deal with them.. a little bit like also hearing today about air embolism and the port being left open. So police interview says she doesn’t know exactly what it is, but today talks about that… and does seem to have some understanding of it.

We also have her saying she doesn’t know the sensitive data policy, but also says where it DOES need to go.

Im just sitting here scratching my head like I’ve missed something?!! Her responses make zero sense.
IMO

The point about five years, though, is that it's been tacitly implied that these sheets only related to the period of the charges. That being the case then they are likely evidence in relation to what she's accused of.

Given that we now know that they cover the whole period she was employed there then their specific relevance to her alleged guilt is massively reduced, IMO.

Again this, IMO, points to some deeper psychological condition she has. Something which has been going on for a very long time, I'd guess.

All MOO, obvs.

 

[Sundial]

What really amuses me too, is her claiming that because they were also found in a box in her bedroom at her parents house too- is ok?
In the garage in a bin bag because she lives alone, and in her bedroom at her parents house; and claims it’s confidential? At any point her parents could have emptied that room and had access to that information, at any point she could have been burgled and that information taken.

I just find it so hard to accept this. Moo

 

[esther43]

Lack of empathy isn't evidence of committing murder though. So it's pointless in my opinion, and risks turning the jury against the prosecution. If the jury is empathetic (a word I hate) they will empathise with a young woman in the Defendant's position. She's ostensibly a normal young woman who was making a good career in a caring profession. Someone with whom they can identify.

This is possible. I think he may have been stating a point that seems quite evident in letby's presentation, that the defendant has a spot of "I" trouble. For want of a better phrase.

 

[esther43]

Letby doesn't know if she's ever had an interest in the policy of managing sensitive data.
Also these 'various' places don't seem that 'varied' in what to me looked like a well organised and tidy home.

"Have you ever been interested in the policy on managing personal sensitive data?"

"I don't know."

"You're not bothered, are you?"

"I don't know the details, these handover sheets were held at my address but they were held in confidence," Letby says.

"In a bin bag in your garage, that's held in confidence, is it?"

Letby says she was the only one living at her home.

Lucy Letby trial latest: Defendant now facing prosecution lawyer after tears in court

The cross-examination of the neonatal nurse, 33, enters its first full day today. Yesterday saw prosecutor Nick Johnson KC ask Letby why she only cries for herself and not the babies she is alleged to have killed. She denied this was the case.

news.sky.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

I thought they only found one handovers in the black bag in the garage?

 

[crowmarsh]

was that the policy in this unit

To add to this; students DO have handover sheets.

 

[Sundial]

The point about five years, though, is that it's been tacitly implied that these sheets only related to the period of the charges. That being the case then they are likely evidence in relation to what she's accused of.

Given that we now know that they cover the whole period she was employed there then their specific relevance to her alleged guilt is massively reduced, IMO.

Again this, IMO, points to some deeper psychological condition she has. Something which has been going on for a very long time, I'd guess.

All MOO, obvs.

I think the interesting thing with this is those
related to the charges were found (mostly) in that one bag-(do correct me if I’m wrong, I’m finding it hard to keep up with just how much paperwork she had!) regardless to how long she had been doing it.

So let’s say it was indeed a 5 yr period; the question still remains, why those listed in the charges in that one bag, and why wouldn’t she dispose, destroy or return as appropriate?
She’s seems quite an educated women, she’s managed to get through her training to start with to actually qualify. She would have had assignments/essays etc she would have had to complete, travel expense forms and her learning log., a dissertation. all needed to be handed in, timely, to qualify.

I find it very difficult to accept she has some kind of problem or boundaries or whatever on this matter as you describe, just by the very nature of the hoops students have to get through to actually achieve the pin to even practice as a nurse.

None of it really makes a lot of sense to me.
Moo

 

[WaxLyrical]

I thought they only found one handovers in the black bag in the garage?

Yeah I thought it was a handwritten note that was in the bin bag, not handover sheets?

 

[Sundial]

was that the policy in this unit

It would be the same as any other nhs trust or unit. How are students to train as nurses without the appropriate information of their patients? How would they learn and know their patients care needs without it?

 

[WaxLyrical]

The whole handover sheet thing feels like a red herring to me now. She’d been randomly taking them home since she qualified. Not great from a confidentiality perspective, but it’s not evidence that at some point in the future she’d suddenly start a serial killing spree. She doesn’t even have handover notes for all the babies in the case. The suggestion these were souvenirs feels as weak as it possibly could be. JMO.

 

[Sundial]

The whole handover sheet thing feels like a red herring to me now. She’d been randomly taking them home since she qualified. Not great from a confidentiality perspective, but it’s not evidence that at some point in the future she’d suddenly start a serial killing spree. She doesn’t even have handover notes for all the babies in the case. The suggestion these were souvenirs feels as weak as it possibly could be. JMO.

Well clearly the CPS didn’t think that otherwise it would never have made it to trial.

Moo
EBM

 

[WaxLyrical]

Well clearly the CPS didn’t think that otherwise it would never have made it to trial.

Moo
EBM

True, and they’ve also brought some cases where it’s still not even clear what LL is alleged to have done and when. IMO.

 

[Sweeper2000]

The whole handover sheet thing feels like a red herring to me now. She’d been randomly taking them home since she qualified. Not great from a confidentiality perspective, but it’s not evidence that at some point in the future she’d suddenly start a serial killing spree. She doesn’t even have handover notes for all the babies in the case. The suggestion these were souvenirs feels as weak as it possibly could be. JMO.

I find it so strange that the prosecution would refer to the weakest condemning point in the notes evidence. Why point to one single note and say that’s evidence of someone who doesn’t care about the rules or confidentiality when 99% of the surrounding evidence says the opposite? That’s the silliest thing I’ve seen from the prosecution. You are correct the notes say nothing IMO.

 

[PoirotPink]

It's a poor way to commence, tbh. Immediately attacking her behavior in court rather than addressing the actual evidence might give the impression that he's struggling, tbh.

This sort of thing is usually a tactic to unnerve the witness, so they'll stumble over subsequent questions they may otherwise have answered credibly or in a way that persuades the jury. Attack what you think is the weakest point or Achilles' Heel at the start, and a witness may become mentally distracted by that or the bad impression they think they've made.

 

[Sundial]

True, and they’ve also brought some cases where it’s still not even clear what LL is alleged to have done and when. IMO.

I actually really feel for the jury (and the families affected by all of this of course) and what they must be thinking. Admittedly, there are times where I don’t think it’s as clear- BUT, equally- there are times where I feel there is something quite uneasy about this. As an example, baby E and baby K are quite striking to me just by the statements from the parents and dr j. That’s very difficult to ignore.

Moo if guilty etc

 

[Sweeper2000]

Well clearly the CPS didn’t think that otherwise it would never have made it to trial.

Moo
EBM

I think the cps bought this to trial working with the diagnoses by dr evans being the strongest aspect of it. Everything else is supplementary and an afterthought.

as far as I can think, they haven’t actually presented much hard evidence of anything that is alleged if we push to the side the clinical notes that allowed dr evans to make the diagnosis.

jmo.

 

[Lincoln34]

It's a poor way to commence, tbh. Immediately attacking her behavior in court rather than addressing the actual evidence might give the impression that he's struggling, tbh.

IMO it’s a standard opening for cross - focusing jury’s minds on the babies and not the young women in the dock from the start .

 

[Sundial]

I find it so strange that the prosecution would refer to the weakest condemning point in the notes evidence. Why point to one single note and say that’s evidence of someone who doesn’t care about the rules or confidentiality when 99% of the surrounding evidence says the opposite? That’s the silliest thing I’ve seen from the prosecution. You are correct the notes say nothing IMO.

A single note? I must have missed that, he said “notes” I believe the discussion was 250 odd in fact? How does 99% of the surrounding evidence say the opposite when she was discussing it with her colleagues whilst off duty, searching the families in anniversaries and keeping the medical information in hers and her parents home?
I don’t think these babies mothers would quite agree, knowing their babies information is in her house, her parents, in bags scattered under her bed etc.

Moo

 

[Tortoise]

Thinking rules don't apply to her is not evidence of murder.

The same cannot be said for the reverse.

Murder, especially multiple pre-planned murders, will be the acts of individuals who believe rules don't apply to them.

This is the point of it, IMO.