UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

[Sweeper2000]

Someone at your bank taking home copies of all your bank statements and keeping them.

I’m quite lucky in that regard tortoise. You can’t commit fraud if there’s no money in the bank.

it’s different IMO, that individual has no pathway by which those notes would end up in their pockets. Would have to be conscious action. I also think the likely grievance from the patients themselves would be the personal nature of the notes.

 

[Dotta]

Personally, if I were doing that I think I'd leave it until the end. Much more impact after he'd spent days destroying her in the witness box then save that for his last statement, I'd have thought.

He can always repeat it

After all,
don't they say
"Practice makes perfect"?

Perfect impact on the Jury I mean.

JMO

 

[esther43]

He can always repeat it

After all,
don't they say
"Practice makes perfect"?

Perfect impact on the Jury I mean.

JMO

Dotta, it's like an essay, has an introduction, middle body and conclusion

 

[katydid23]

I was wondering that the other day. My feeling is no. The reasoning behind that thinking is that, logically, you can't be "cross examined" on something you haven't said to begin with.

You can be cross examined on things that were glossed over in earlier testimony though.

Once Meyers discussed the case of Baby A, then everything concerning the death of Baby A is open for cross. Even things that Meyers did not mention could be asked about if it is relating to the death of Child A and the defendant. JMO

That is what 'opening the door' means. Once the door is opened, you can enter the room and address other pertaining issues. You cannot address issues from a different room until that door is opened.

 

[Tortoise]

I’m quite lucky in that regard tortoise. You can’t commit fraud if there’s no money in the bank.

it’s different IMO, that individual has no pathway by which those notes would end up in their pockets. Would have to be conscious action. I also think the likely grievance from the patients themselves would be the personal nature of the notes.

That's a subjective view, thinking no money no fraud, and every other person whose statement was in their bedroom would have no money and feel the same way, and if it was innocently put in the pocket it excuses the keeping of it.

Objectively, it is your personal information that an employee has no right to take home from the bank, let alone consciously putting it into bags and keeping under their bed.

 

[Anxala]

Have to agree, it came off as a little gung ho,
A more sensitive build may have won him more points with the jury.
Perhaps he's fCkd off with her bs!!

Maybe he is or maybe he's just not in possession of what he crucially needs to bring this case home?

Have to say, I was surprised by today's prosecution performance. I genuinely expected it to be refined, sophisticated, nuanced, as would be befitting this gift that LL taking the stand has given them and with all the time they've had to prepare for this, but it just imo reeked of their reliance upon things that really don't take their 'guilty' stance in any way convincingly forward.

Let's see what tomorrow brings.

 

[Googysleuth]

First post on this case but long time follower (since LL's first arrest). It's a real predicament for the jury so far. Prosecution has not really been able to produce a 'smoking gun' but the defence's case, to me, has seemed weak. LL's own testimony appears to have crumbled the foundations further. I really think it is going to come down to the cross-examination. I'm wondering whether she might crack and say something wholly ill-advised, if today is anything to go by.

Just dreadful subject matter but somehow difficult to look away. If guilty, this is up there as one of the most diabolical crimes in UK legal history by someone who simply doesn't seem capable from what we have seen. If found not guilty then it will either be due to an astonishing set of improbabilities, organizational shortcomings, or legal/investigative failures (or a combination).

If found guilty, one cannot begin to comprehend the motive. My guess is that we'd be reliant on a possible picture of someone who is highly manipulative, possibly dissociative, with high masking capability, who believes they are above the rules and may have significant psychological issues associated with attachment (to the babies, to items such as paperwork), or associated with feelings towards the parents. But really we would simply never know. If found not guilty, the poor parents will be left with hundreds of unanswered questions that cannot be easily explained and no sense of closure, and LL will have had her life utterly destroyed for no reason other than probability and fitting a particular narrative that can strong the events together. There is no good outcome.

Personally I know which way I'm leaning having soul searched for a long time, but I can't shake the feeling that there's something else out there that could explain the collapses which might have been overlooked due to its improbability at first glance.

All MOO

 

[Dcflag]

I absolutely think it’s a huge transgression to take home any medical information about someone else that’s obtained in a work capacity, even if it’s “just” handover notes. If someone HAD managed to steal them, it’s only possible because she took them home, that’s more than just a potential risk to me. Coupled with the fact that I would be just as angry if someone had taken my medical details home and kept them in a locked box. It’s bizarre. That’s not someone I’d want involved in my medical care, and I’m generally quite easy going.

Just a very obscure comparison about the way people react to GDPR compliance, I work as a vet receptionist and we have email templates. I had a woman come to the desk to make a complaint that her GDPR had been breached because we’d sent her an email with the template name in place of her own. She wouldn’t have it that it wasn’t a breach because none of her data was sent anywhere, and the name was a fictional template name. She was so angry!

Now imagine that’s lots of angry people connected to lots of personal medical information.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Someone at your bank taking home copies of all your bank statements and keeping them.

A more accurate comparison would be someone at your bank taking home the printed copy of their diary appointments for that day. Customers’ surname, possibly a date of birth or single account number, and the purpose of the appointment.

 

[Dotta]

The whole handover sheet thing feels like a red herring to me now. She’d been randomly taking them home since she qualified. Not great from a confidentiality perspective, but it’s not evidence that at some point in the future she’d suddenly start a serial killing spree. She doesn’t even have handover notes for all the babies in the case. The suggestion these were souvenirs feels as weak as it possibly could be. JMO.

Hmmm....
AFAIK the Operation Hummingbird is still very active checking the WHOLE period of her career.
Just saying.

JMO

 

[JosieJo]

Maybe he is or maybe he's just not in possession of what he crucially needs to bring this case home?

Have to say, I was surprised by today's prosecution performance. I genuinely expected it to be refined, sophisticated, nuanced, as would be befitting this gift that LL taking the stand has given them and with all the time they've had to prepare for this, but it just imo reeked of their reliance upon things that really don't take their 'guilty' stance in any way convincingly forward. JMO.

Let's see what tomorrow brings.

They only had 15 mins at best ? 3 questions? The first question about crying was put to her because she was crying as he stood to cross examine her ? I'm not really sure we can say it reeked of their reliance on things that are unconvincing?

 

[marynnu]

So, please help me get this straight. If LL started taking home handover sheets early on in her time at CoC, that would imply the earlier ones were potentially moved 3 times - hospital accommodation>friend's flat>hospital accommodation>house. For me that is particularly odd as it absolutely had to be a conscious decision. I know a lot of people don't give much weight to these documents, likewise the FB searches, but the more I think about it the stranger it all seems to me. I try to imagine how I'd feel if one if my colleagues had done this, and I really feel I would have been very disturbed by it.
All JMO

 

[DianaWW]

A more accurate comparison would be someone at your bank taking home the printed copy of their diary appointments for that day. Customers’ surname, possibly a date of birth or single account number, and the purpose of the appointment.

All I know is, if I found out one of the medical staff that had treated my children had kept anything relating to them in a bag under their bed, I would be horrified.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’ll give my take on the notes as a total It’s largely in agreement with others here. As the evidence stands.

I still think most evidence points to her having gathered the notes perhaps in bundles and then put in the folder. So they gather in the work bag for example and then as a bundle are put into the folder ie the notes of baby o and p found together and the Morrisins bag. I think she has registered they are important and are not something to dispose of carelessl ie just put in the bin Hence why the folder in the box related to work matters next to the shredder. I think she may consider her residence as a safe space for them and can be stored there if inaction was the perceived safest route Upon discovery ie not disposed of. I still think she may have been reluctant to dispose of them in any other place than at work Which weirdly enough is still a conscientious POV and may be a reflection of her understanding how wrong it is if they are found in a black bag on the street. I do not think that the one note in a black bag or the five notes in the keep box means anything or that if it does it isn’t easy to discern. I cant figure out if the 250 odd notes over her career implies something more severe than a bad habit or she wasn’t just in a rush to get home. I also can’t figure out how much time she spent thinking about them after storage which would be very implicative.

you do the math and figure out how often she must have been taken them home if there is 250 odd over her entire career.

 

[marynnu]

All I know is, if I found out one of the medical staff that had treated my children had kept anything relating to them in a bag under their bed, I would be horrified.

My God, yes. My son is grown up now, but I can still imagine. Doesn't bear thinking about. I sometimes wonder if people would feel differently if it were a male nurse.

 

[Dcflag]

If I were to think about the sheets from my own point of view. If I knew they were confidential and I wasn’t supposed to have them at home, and for whatever reason I wasn’t keen on taking them back to work to be destroyed.. I might be okay with perhaps putting them somewhere while I decide what to do with them. But when I’m suddenly faced with not just a few but a few hundred.. surely at some point the penny is going to drop to just stop taking them home? Or to burn them? Or do something. I could understand the odd slip, I can’t understand how anyone could be comfortable that sheer amount of papers at home.

 

[Sweeper2000]

So, please help me get this straight. If LL started taking home handover sheets early on in her time at CoC, that would imply the earlier ones were potentially moved 3 times - hospital accommodation>friend's flat>hospital accommodation>house. For me that is particularly odd as it absolutely had to be a conscious decision. I know a lot of people don't give much weight to these documents, likewise the FB searches, but the more I think about it the stranger it all seems to me. I try to imagine how I'd feel if one if my colleagues had done this, and I really feel I would have been very disturbed by it.
All JMO

Doesn’t not necessarily. That box she had in the spare room I think is where she stores work related stuff ie qualification records, record of accomplishments, newspaper articles ie fundraisers etc if she did just put them in a folder and then forgot about them it would be very very easy to forget about even when moving. She’s not likely to go through everything in that box when moving. It’s akin to sticking it in the back of the cupboard. I don’t see any reason to assume she ever gave that folder more than a passing thought. I would if it was discovered the notes were filed or organised. That’s not what the evidence points to imo.

 

[WaxLyrical]

All I know is, if I found out one of the medical staff that had treated my children had kept anything relating to them in a bag under their bed, I would be horrified.

As would I. I’m certainly not defending her having these notes, I can understand them coming home inadvertently in a pocket now and again, sure, everyone is human. But hanging onto 5 years worth is, frankly, outrageous.

 

[Sweeper2000]

How easy is it forget about a folder full of what is technically rubbish, that is added to sporadically? If she hadn’t registered the dates on the, she doesn’t know she has five years worth.

 

[Left Thoughts]

I’ll give my take on the notes as a total It’s largely in agreement with others here. As do not think that the one note in a black bag or the five notes in the keep box means anything or that if it does it isn’t easy to discern. I cant figure out if the 250 odd notes over her career implies something more severe than a bad habit or she wasn’t just in a rush to get home. I also can’t figure out how much time she spent thinking about them after storage which would be very implicative.

you do the math and figure out how often she must have been taken them home if there is 250 odd over her entire career.

I have my own thoughts and beliefs at this stage but appreciate anybodys perspective on this case, particularly if they challenge my own beliefs.

But to clarify your point on a there was a very rough Average of 50 handover notes per year kept at her home after her move (moves? I don't really count the one out of her student accommodation)

Blatant disregard for patient confidentiality imo. And that speaks to her character, again imo