UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

[DianaWW]

How easy is it forget about a folder full of what is technically rubbish, that is added to sporadically? If she hadn’t registered the dates on the, she doesn’t know she has five years worth.

Is it a fact they were all in a folder? She said on the stand today she’d leave them all over the house. And couldn’t be more specific than that when asked.

 

[Jazmania]

I’ll give my take on the notes as a total It’s largely in agreement with others here. As the evidence stands.

I still think most evidence points to her having gathered the notes perhaps in bundles and then put in the folder. So they gather in the work bag for example and then as a bundle are put into the folder ie the notes of baby o and p found together and the Morrisins bag. I think she has registered they are important and are not something to dispose of carelessl ie just put in the bin Hence why the folder in the box related to work matters next to the shredder. I think she may consider her residence as a safe space for them and can be stored there if inaction was the perceived safest route Upon discovery ie not disposed of. I still think she may have been reluctant to dispose of them in any other place than at work Which weirdly enough is still a conscientious POV and may be a reflection of her understanding how wrong it is if they are found in a black bag on the street. I do not think that the one note in a black bag or the five notes in the keep box means anything or that if it does it isn’t easy to discern. I cant figure out if the 250 odd notes over her career implies something more severe than a bad habit or she wasn’t just in a rush to get home. I also can’t figure out how much time she spent thinking about them after storage which would be very implicative.

you do the math and figure out how often she must have been taken them home if there is 250 odd over her entire career.

About 50 a year which if she works 3 days a week is about 150 shifts. So she takes home 1 in every 3 handouts

 

[Jazmania]

Doesn’t not necessarily. That box she had in the spare room I think is where she stores work related stuff ie qualification records, record of accomplishments, newspaper articles ie fundraisers etc if she did just put them in a folder and then forgot about them it would be very very easy to forget about even when moving. She’s not likely to go through everything in that box when moving. It’s akin to sticking it in the back of the cupboard. I don’t see any reason to assume she ever gave that folder more than a passing thought. I would if it was discovered the notes were filed or organised. That’s not what the evidence points to imo.

Where are you getting this from? We've heard no evidence that notes were kept in a folder. 30 odd were found in 2 plastic bags under her bed. 5 in a box marked keep in her parents house. The rest of the 200 odd we don't know where they were found. On the stand she said they were scattered around the house randomly.

 

[esther43]

So, please help me get this straight. If LL started taking home handover sheets early on in her time at CoC, that would imply the earlier ones were potentially moved 3 times - hospital accommodation>friend's flat>hospital accommodation>house. For me that is particularly odd as it absolutely had to be a conscious decision. I know a lot of people don't give much weight to these documents, likewise the FB searches, but the more I think about it the stranger it all seems to me. I try to imagine how I'd feel if one if my colleagues had done this, and I really feel I would have been very disturbed by it.
All JMO

It really is very odd isn't it? I mean seriously, why would you cart them around with you?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I have my own thoughts and beliefs at this stage but appreciate anybodys perspective on this case, particularly if they challenge my own beliefs.

But to clarify your point on a very rough Average of 50 handover notes per year Kept at her homes

Blatant disregard for patient confidentiality imo.

I did get to roughly once a week as well But that’s with 365 days. How many days worked in a year? other things you have to consider, the dates between the notes themselves ie is one month better or worse? Or did she keep twenty notes from one month and then no others for the next three And why? If it’s not just her general pattern of behaviour.

 

[katydid23]

Mr Johnson asks who provides the uniforms: "The hospital," says Letby.
The staff launder the uniforms, and Letby says she launders them every time they are used. There is a rotation of three uniforms.
Mr Johnson says when laundering, the pockets would be emptied. He asks where the items would be placed. Letby: "I would accumulate papers in [random] places in my home."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, May 17 - defence continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

This^^^ was an important point made by the Pros. Her uniforms were laundered so she was the one emptying her pockets of all the handover sheets. She could have easily kept them in the pockets and then disposed of them when she dropped them off at the laundry. She had to purposely take them out of her pockets at home each time.

 

[katydid23]

I wonder what mr Johnson would have said if she turned around and said “is there a reason why you don’t cry about the babies”? “At the end of the day I’ve had hours of being questioned about these traumatic events and now am conditioned to it”.

That would have sounded very cold and callous if she had replied that way, imo.

 

[JosieJo]

The thing for me after a couple of months in the job ..the last thing nurses often do before heading for the door home is check their pockets ..the fear of taking home "the keys" or "the bleep" and having to return just as you thought your head was going to hit your pillow makes it a must. It becomes a habit sometimes you do it without realising...check and empty pockets ..go home.
Yes occasionally you go home with an occasional piece of paper ..it gets put on the dressing table or bedside cabinet as you empty your pockets to put your uniform in the laundry and either put it back in your clean uniform pocket to put it in confidential bin at work next shift or rip it up in unreadable pieces and put it in your bin.

What you "don't do" is accidentally amass 250 of them and take them with you when you move house multiple times.

The life of a normal nurse ...part 1

 

[Sweeper2000]

Where are you getting this from? We've heard no evidence that notes were kept in a folder. 30 odd were found in 2 plastic bags under her bed. 5 in a box marked keep in her parents house. The rest of the 200 odd we don't know where they were found. On the stand she said they were scattered around the house randomly.

I knew some were found spread in two bags but I thought the majority of them were found in a folder at home or maybe I’m conflating it with the notes found in her blue folder at work?

if they were indeed found scattered in The house I am truly surprised the prosecution didn’t mention it.

 

[katydid23]

It's a poor way to commence, tbh. Immediately attacking her behavior in court rather than addressing the actual evidence might give the impression that he's struggling, tbh.

I disagree. The prosecution , if they do believe she is guilty, have to shake her up, and let her know they won't be coddling her. She has been treated with kid gloves by Meyers and now she will be under pressure and be treated more aggressively.

 

[Sweeper2000]

That would have sounded very cold and callous if she had replied that way, imo.

Or aggrieved. It’s a snooty answer to a potentially insulting question.

 

[PoirotPink]

Actually, could you perhaps explain to me why you think it is acceptable for a nurse to be doing so?
It is a serious legal implication. They should NOT have been there under any circumstance. If she cannot do that for whatever reason and oblige to the basic principles of being a nurse and breaching confidentiality, then she should not be practicing. It’s that simple.

I do not have to explain why “I think” this about patient confidentiality; it is a matter of fact in every single nhs, private, voluntary (etc) sectors. You do NOT do it. I’m not quite sure why you seem to think this behaviour is acceptable or trying to justify it.

While I agree, I bet this sort of thing does happen more often than expected in real life. She was only caught with the paperwork because her home was searched by the police. Such actions committed by ordinary, law-abiding employees would never come to light. There's an element of trust involved in how data is safeguarded and most people won't be aware of any transgression until / unless their data has been misused in some way.

 

[katydid23]

Disagree. If I'm on that jury I'm thinking "Stop making it personal and ask proper questions for goodness sake".

It is personal if it is true that she committed these crimes. The prosecution believes she is guilty. So they will come at her aggressively in the same way they think she came at her victims.

Those are proper questions, imo.

 

[marynnu]

This^^^ was an important point made by the Pros. Her uniforms were laundered so she was the one emptying her pockets of all the handover sheets. She could have easily kept them in the pockets and then disposed of them when she dropped them off at the laundry. She had to purposely take them out of her pockets at home each time.

I think it might mean she washes them herself.

 

[PoirotPink]

I’m quite lucky in that regard tortoise. You can’t commit fraud if there’s no money in the bank.

it’s different IMO, that individual has no pathway by which those notes would end up in their pockets. Would have to be conscious action. I also think the likely grievance from the patients themselves would be the personal nature of the notes.

It's still possible to commit fraud, even if the victim has no money in their account. Some examples might be taking out a loan in your name, or using your overdraft.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It's still possible to commit fraud, even if the victim has no money in their account. Some examples might be taking out a loan in your name, or using your overdraft.

Was a joke.

 

[katydid23]

While I agree, I bet this sort of thing does happen more often than expected in real life. She was only caught with the paperwork because her home was searched by the police. Such actions committed by ordinary, law-abiding employees would never come to light. There's an element of trust involved in how data is safeguarded and most people won't be aware of any transgression until / unless their data has been misused in some way.

Right, but her home was only searched because every time a baby unexpectedly collapsed, she was the constant link. So those transgressions take on a different and more suspicious light. And they are going to be looked at in a much more intense way because of those circumstances.

 

[esther43]

Her answers sound very similar to things people have said to me who I know have issues facing up to why they do (or don't do) certain things. I don't think this relates to guilt about the charges (if she's guilty) and the fact that she's been acquiring these for years makes me more sure of that.

As I've said, I'm certainly no expert but it seems to me as though she has a serious issue with getting rid of things - some fear of loss and can't bear divesting herself of things, needs to acquire stuff for security or similar. I'm not educated in this sort of thing so don't really know how to describe it but this goes far deeper than these allegations, I think. As I say, her answers make no sense and pretty much mirror what other people have said to me about things which simply make no sense and are not in any way a rational answer.

You have mentioned this a few times but I think I disagree on this one, she generally seemed extraordinarily organised, I mean I count owning a shredder as 'up there' with next level house keeping. As well as that everything else in her house other than the handover sheets remained tidy and organized.
If she was scatty in general it would be different imo

 

[Jazmania]

I knew some were found spread in two bags but I thought the majority of them were found in a folder at home or maybe I’m conflating it with the notes found in her blue folder at work?

if they were indeed found scattered in The house I am truly surprised the prosecution didn’t mention it.

You're definitely mistaken. As I say it hasn't been confirmed where the other notes were found. She said herself they were randomly scattered.

 

[Cluedoneit]

Don’t forget, she’s not just putting them in a file and leaving them. They were found in her every day work bag, so every day she would put her lunch, uniform etc in that bag, she would see and be reminded of those sheets. How can she say they were kept confidentially when she was walking around with patients information to and from work every day and potentially to activities she would do straight after work?