UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #21

[Marantz4250b]

You have mentioned this a few times but I think I disagree on this one, she generally seemed extraordinarily organised, I mean I count owning a shredder as 'up there' with next level house keeping. As well as that everything else in her house other than the handover sheets remained tidy and organized.
If she was scatty in general it would be different imo

I get that but being organised isn't the same as doing things logically or the "right" way.

Also, I don't agree that her house was particularly organised. Her bedroom wasn't particularly neatly arranged and she had loads of random "stuff" around the place which seemed to have little or no relevance to the life of a well educated, mid 20's single woman, tbh.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I’m not sure her official duties have actually been breached. If she’s right and her only mandatory requirement is to make sure no other eyes or ears get the info on the sheets she hasn’t technically done anything wrong. I would assume either mr Myers or herself really does know the rules so that’s why that’s been said.

are exceptions but now I’m thinking why Mr Johnson once stressed this was a document that absolutely should not have left the hospital , might be the only document that is legally required to be disposed of or stored at the hospital.
probably blood gas printout or something like that.

her house is a safe space, not public by any means. If her continuous testimony is correct and she left them on the kitchen counter after work and then put them in the folder it suggests she does care about patient confidentiality.

Oh sweeper that is just patently wrong. They cannot leave the hospital.
Surely we are not debating this still ?

 

[katydid23]

I think it might mean she washes them herself.

Gotcha

 

[Marantz4250b]

You seem to be giving her a pass here. How do we know it wasn't connected to the offences?

You are saying she knows the consequences and the importance---but she still couldn't help herself because her inability to let go is too strong.

On one hand, she claims that her job and career is 'her whole life' and means everything to her. But yet she cannot comply with one of the biggest rules of confidentiality and broke it repeatedly and acts as if it is no big deal. Like the rules do not apply to her.

I think it may be connected to the offences because I think her compulsion to hold on to things is part of the possible compulsions seen in the accusations. She seems to be overly concerned with how people view her and how they think about her nursing abilities and her competence.

Could her opportunities to help in these dramatic resuscitations be the motivating factor behind these unexpected collapses?

I didn't say that. I said I wasn't convinced they were connected to the alleged offences.

 

[squish]

I think the papers are relevant. What we know:
1. She would ought to have reasonably known it was wrong (GDPR training, mentoring etc)
2. She did it consistently over a long period
3. They weren't well organized
4. She held onto them for an unreasonable amount of time

If it was involuntary, such as compulsive behaviour, and she then didn't know how to dispose of them or felt like she would get in terrible trouble if she turned up at the hospital with it all then at best it builds the profile of someone who is unreliable in an environment that requires high levels of focus, rule abiding and reliability. At worst it builds the profile of someone who may have psychological issues with attachment that manifests in unpredictable ways.

If it was voluntary it could be suggested that she was using the information over a long period of time for planning purposes, or that she is unable to control her actions even when she knows something is wrong, or that she doesn't even have a good sense of right and wrong. It is perhaps not even a stretch to suggest that she could have felt some level of ownership over the information and the individuals involved.

Unless I am missing something there is no way that LL can plausibly explain this without some kind of negative statement on her character. This is what the prosecution will want to achieve.

MOO

They were somewhat organised: 31/257 of these handover notes were separated into a bag, and 17 of those notes related to charges in this case.

I otherwise agree, even if everything she says regarding these notes is true, it shows she is careless and lazy, and thinks she's above bothering with petty little rules about data handling and patient privacy.

I don't think it's true though, as the prosecution point out, these papers have survived regular laundering of her uniform, and multiple house moves, plus as mentioned, some important ones were separated from the others.

She definitely had a reason for collecting and keeping these.

 

[katydid23]

No, the unit held something like 15 babies max. Not the name of every patient in the hospital.

Right, so each handover sheet would have personal confidential medical info for up to 15 patients.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I’m not sure her official duties have actually been breached. If she’s right and her only mandatory requirement is to make sure no other eyes or ears get the info on the sheets she hasn’t technically done anything wrong. I would assume either mr Myers or herself really does know the rules so that’s why that’s been said.

are exceptions but now I’m thinking why Mr Johnson once stressed this was a document that absolutely should not have left the hospital , might be the only document that is legally required to be disposed of or stored at the hospital.
probably blood gas printout or something like that.

her house is a safe space, not public by any means. If her continuous testimony is correct and she left them on the kitchen counter after work and then put them in the folder it suggests she does care about patient confidentiality.

She simply didn’t care about the sheets. I think she viewed them like a rota. Was never self disciplined about binning them and it just became habit over time, with a failure to recognise any realistic risk. Without knowing whether her own paperwork was stored in a haphazard way, it’s hard to draw any conclusions on why she still had them. Were most of them mixed up in other piles of stuff?

This handover sheet business has went from a bag of trophies under the bed, to 257 sheets in one year which must mean she was planning her next kills, to her normal pattern of behaviour since she qualified as a nurse m that shows disregard for the rules akin to other serial killers.

If you’re looking for guilt, you’ll find it in the handover note behaviour. If you’re not looking for guilt, the handover sheets (while not ideal for any nurse to be doing) mean very little.

JMO.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Right, so each handover sheet would have personal confidential medical info for upon to 15 patients.

Yes. I don’t know what they contain, bed number, medicines, how often they’re fed etc?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Oh sweeper that is just patently wrong. They cannot leave the hospital.
Surely we are not debating this still ?

She said it not me.

i think the rule about disposing of them in the bins as the shift finishes is a trust made rule, locally made and enforced but not a legal requirement.

 

[WaxLyrical]

If so, that is another example of her breaking the rules and breaking protocol.

She is supposed to wash them herself, the hospital doesn’t launder the uniforms.

 

[katydid23]

I’m not sure her official duties have actually been breached. If she’s right and her only mandatory requirement is to make sure no other eyes or ears get the info on the sheets she hasn’t technically done anything wrong. I would assume either mr Myers or herself really does know the rules so that’s why that’s been said.

are exceptions but now I’m thinking why Mr Johnson once stressed this was a document that absolutely should not have left the hospital , might be the only document that is legally required to be disposed of or stored at the hospital.
probably blood gas printout or something like that.

her house is a safe space, not public by any means. If her continuous testimony is correct and she left them on the kitchen counter after work and then put them in the folder it suggests she does care about patient confidentiality.

wow...lol....how much of a pretzel do you have to twist into, to make her actions look just fine?

She is NOT supposed to take any of those papers out of the hospital. So she did breach her official duties. 250 times at least.

Her house is not a safe space for the confidential medical info about patients from her clinic. Her folder, or bin bag or plastic bag under the bed---NOT safe places for confidential information.

I have no idea how you can say any of the above suggests she is concerned with patient confidentiality.

 

[squish]

YES, I really think he will.

I bloody hope so, but I am a tad concerned with how he started, as satisfying as it was.

He jumped straight in there with her last-minute majorly changing her story about Baby K. I always thought this was one of the prosecutions' stronger cases, and think LL has seriously shot herself in the foot with her shenanigans.

Starting with the 11th baby makes me worry he's not going to do a thorough, blow blow by questioning for each charge. He may be concerned that the jury have just had so much information to deal with these past 7 months, that it might be best to keep this short and sweet, so the jury remember the important bits.

 

[katydid23]

She is supposed to wash them herself, the hospital doesn’t launder the uniforms.

Wait, didn't she just testify to the opposite?

Oh, she said 'the staff launder the uniforms' ---oops, I took that as 'the hospital staff' had them washed.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Wait, didn't she just testify to the opposite?

No, she said that she laundered them.

 

[Cluedoneit]

I’m not sure her official duties have actually been breached. If she’s right and her only mandatory requirement is to make sure no other eyes or ears get the info on the sheets she hasn’t technically done anything wrong. I would assume either mr Myers or herself really does know the rules so that’s why that’s been said.

are exceptions but now I’m thinking why Mr Johnson once stressed this was a document that absolutely should not have left the hospital , might be the only document that is legally required to be disposed of or stored at the hospital.
probably blood gas printout or something like that.

her house is a safe space, not public by any means. If her continuous testimony is correct and she left them on the kitchen counter after work and then put them in the folder it suggests she does care about patient confidentiality.

But as I mentioned before, is her daily work carrier bag a safe place? She was taking them to and from work as well as to after work activities for a whole year in that bag. Every single shift she’d have to see them when taking her uniform and lunch out of her bag whilst at work and not once did she dispose of them? She only changed the bag after her Ibiza holiday, so the majority of the case, she had one bag full of personal data and not moved to a folder. They were daily reminders of a traumatic time and yet she didn’t get rid or remove them from her sight.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Wait, didn't she just testify to the opposite?

No, she said the hospital supplies the uniforms but the staff launder them. That means you wash them at home in your own washing machine (we don’t really use launderettes in the uk)

 

[Sundial]

I'm sure she mentioned herself that she put them in a folder. I can't recall this folder being mentioned by anyone else, though.

I too read about said folder; her words.
And yet there is nothing (that I have seen) which clarifies this from either prosecution or her defence- at least yet. No mention of whether this is indeed the case.
JMO

 

[squish]

I’m not sure her official duties have actually been breached. If she’s right and her only mandatory requirement is to make sure no other eyes or ears get the info on the sheets she hasn’t technically done anything wrong. I would assume either mr Myers or herself really does know the rules so that’s why that’s been said.

are exceptions but now I’m thinking why Mr Johnson once stressed this was a document that absolutely should not have left the hospital , might be the only document that is legally required to be disposed of or stored at the hospital.
probably blood gas printout or something like that.

her house is a safe space, not public by any means. If her continuous testimony is correct and she left them on the kitchen counter after work and then put them in the folder it suggests she does care about patient confidentiality.

What absolute nonsense. Do you really think hospitals allow their staff to take confidential patient documents home? How would they monitor staff's living situations and guests? How do they know staff's partners, roommates, children, visitors etc won't get their hands on these documents?

Hint: they definitely would not make an exception for Lucy being a single homeowner. This was 100% against the rules. To the point where if LL is found not guilty on all charges, I'm pretty sure she will still never work as a nurse again.

 

[ColourPurple]

Wait, didn't she just testify to the opposite?

Just confusing wording. ie hospital staff wash the uniforms and nurses are hospital staff. Therefore LL washes her uniform.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I too read about said folder; her words.
And yet there is nothing (that I have seen) which clarifies this from either prosecution or her defence- at least yet. No mention of whether this is indeed the case.
JMO

It's very bizarre, to be honest. Sheets were found in bags under her bed, bin bags in her garage and in a box in a cupboard in her room at her parents house but she claims that it was normal procedure for her to put them in a folder???? No one on either side has commented on this at all. If it wasn't true (which it clearly isn't) then why hasn't the prosecution called her out on it?