UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #22

[Sundial]

Bending the rules isn’t the same as wilfully distorting facts to hide or conceal a known truth which is manipulation imo.

Right, like the shredder she allegedly didn’t have or not working or whatever with bank statements in it?

 

[Parker Knoll]

This was the NMC Code back in 2015

10 Keep clear and accurate records relevant to your practice

This includes but is not limited to patient records. It includes all records that are relevant to your scope of practice.
To achieve this, you must:
10.1 complete all records at the time or as soon as possible after an event, recording if the notes are written some time after the event
10.2 identify any risks or problems that have arisen and the steps taken to deal with them, so that colleagues who use the records have all the information they need
103 comblete all records accurately and without any falsification, taking immediate and appropriate action if you become aware that someone has not kept to these requirements
10.4 attribute any entries you make in any paper or electronic records to yourself, making sure they are clearly written, dated and timed, and do not include unnecessary abbreviations, jargon or speculation
10.5 take all steps to make sure that all records are kept securely, and
10.6 collect, treat and store all data and research findings appropriately.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Equally- we don’t know if they *were* kept securely though. It’s not a fact and she shouldn’t be doing this. We don’t know (or the jury for that matter) what “secure” means to her when they shouldn’t have even been there in the first place.

What really boggles my mind, is how many times she moved and even if she had, let’s say 5, at a push, 10 handovers, she technically could have done something about that but just ferried them from place to place, house to house, work and back, to and fro.. I can’t help but question how anyone would think that is remotely secure.
JMO

Exactly that, is that all we will hear on questioning of the notes by the p though? Would have thought it might include more probing.

im not sure how to be certain she knew she was transporting the notes once at home and out of the bag so to speak. The house moves and that they could all be hidden in the folder and unnoticed. The ones kept in the work bag though that’s strange you couldn’t really ignore it but ignore it she seemingly did. Back and to work for who knows how long. Five years worth really does suggest it was a bad habit. So strange.

Right, like the shredder she allegedly didn’t have or not working or whatever with bank statements in it?

Lol. I think the purpose of manipulative strategy is in the concealment of it’s true purpose not really saying things that are unbelievable and likely to be noticed. If she knowingly didn’t tell the truth there she’s out and out lying not even slightly foxy imo.

an example of manipulation is portraying a justified and reasonable or ordinary response to something as really unusual or evidence of something else. Ie if I insult you and you get angry then I make out your reaction is whats wrong then I’m manipulating you. If I was lying I would simply say it didnt happen.

 

[Sundial]

I joined the dots actually remember now. Includes the pic of the shredder though. Her testimony about the folder in the spare room, just judging by the pic that is the spare room. Has nothing but a cardboard box and the shredder next to it in the corner. That box looks like it has folders in and looks organised. I thought if that is more like her office room hence the shredder and that box has all that kind of thing in it, it’s the most likely place someone would put a folder of work related stuff ie qualification certificates etc it’s also the only place in that room. Assuming it is indeed the spare room.

I think she probably didn’t spend much time thinking about them tbh more or less back of the cupboard kind of thing. Not important enough to spend the time on but something none the less.

I’m sure I read she had said folder was supposedly in a cupboard under the stairs. The thing is; you can’t really speculate what she used that spare room for or *where* things are unless it’s agreed as facts and demonstrated by evidence.

If it was in the back of a cupboard as you suggest, then how does the whole office thing and spare room/shredder fit?

In any case, I don’t think it’s relevant *where* things were/not in her house, we don’t actually know *what* her home really looks like- just reported and agreed as facts and photos. Anything else is just speculation. It will be interesting to hear the prosecution cross in due course.
IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

This was the NMC Code back in 2015

10 Keep clear and accurate records relevant to your practice

This includes but is not limited to patient records. It includes all records that are relevant to your scope of practice.
To achieve this, you must:
10.1 complete all records at the time or as soon as possible after an event, recording if the notes are written some time after the event
10.2 identify any risks or problems that have arisen and the steps taken to deal with them, so that colleagues who use the records have all the information they need
103 comblete all records accurately and without any falsification, taking immediate and appropriate action if you become aware that someone has not kept to these requirements
10.4 attribute any entries you make in any paper or electronic records to yourself, making sure they are clearly written, dated and timed, and do not include unnecessary abbreviations, jargon or speculation
10.5 take all steps to make sure that all records are kept securely, and
10.6 collect, treat and store all data and research findings appropriately.

Would any of this apply to a handover sheet? That all seems to refer to clinical papers proper ie monitor readings, admission of treatments ie meds, admission papers, etc

 

[Enquirer-2019]

JMO- I think the handover mystery may have simply originated from a bad habit of taking sheets home inadvertently, leading to an accumulation that could have initially been placed in scattered locations. She would be one of many thousands of nurses/doctors who have done the same without realising. That is a widely acknowledged, and common industry related human error issue.

Also, potentially due to not initially owning a shredder, she likely stored them, knowing all too well that…disposing them domestically was against the rules, and risky.

Alternatively, she may have kept many as learning resources, most handovers include patient’s reason for admission e.g., symptoms, existing medical conditions, current clinical investigations, and differential diagnosis, alongside recommended treatments (e.g., medications inc. dose/route).

Thus, Many people find them a useful learning resource to build upon, or cement their clinical knowledge, as a form of continuous learning and development. However, they should not be stored or taken out of the hospital/practice for such purposes - But, again I doubt that this is an uncommon issue.


<modsnip: sub judice>

All JMO

 

[Sundial]

Exactly that, is that all we will hear on questioning of the notes by the p though? Would have thought it might include more probing.

im not sure how to be certain she knew she was transporting the notes once at home and out of the bag so to speak. The house moves and that they could all be hidden in the folder and unnoticed. The ones kept in the work bag though that’s strange you couldn’t really ignore it but ignore it she seemingly did. Back and to work for who knows how long. Five years worth really does suggest it was a bad habit. So strange.


Lol. I think the purpose of manipulative strategy is in the concealment of it’s true purpose not really saying things that are unbelievable and likely to be noticed. If she knowingly didn’t tell the truth there she’s out and out lying not even slightly foxy imo.

an example of manipulation is portraying a justified and reasonable or ordinary response to something as really unusual or evidence of something else. Ie if I insult you and you get angry then I make out your reaction is whats wrong then I’m manipulating you. If I was lying I would simply say it didnt happen.

Sure; I’m quite aware of what being sly and manipulative is though. They can be the same interchangeably whether you agree or not., depending on how you want to use them as actions and how you perceive them. I’ve been manipulated by sly actions myself. I could be lied to by manipulative behaviour but the action itself is sly and underhand; ergo- manipulated for a desired effect.

Moo

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’m sure I read she had said folder was supposedly in a cupboard under the stairs. The thing is; you can’t really speculate what she used that spare room for or *where* things are unless it’s agreed as facts and demonstrated by evidence.

If it was in the back of a cupboard as you suggest, then how does the whole office thing and spare room/shredder fit?

In any case, I don’t think it’s relevant *where* things were/not in her house, we don’t actually know *what* her home really looks like- just reported and agreed as facts and photos. Anything else is just speculation. It will be interesting to hear the prosecution cross in due course.
IMO

Ringing a faint bell with me as well. I think the evidence indicates it being the spare room functioning as an office. Hence the shredder and what looks like a box of paperwork which presumably contains the folder at that point.

back of the cupb kind of thin ie just something you store and forget about. Hence why you could miss it on a move. The pic of the room with the shredder looks empty hence why it’s the spare room. the pics of her house were of how it was laid out at the time so gives an insight IMO.

 

[Sundial]

Ringing a faint bell with me as well. I think the evidence indicates it being the spare room functioning as an office. Hence the shredder and what looks like a box of paperwork which presumably contains the folder at that point.

back of the cupb kind of thin ie just something you store and forget about. Hence why you could miss it on a move. The pic of the room with the shredder looks empty hence why it’s the spare room. the pics of her house were of how it was laid out at the time so gives an insight IMO.

But no-one suggested it functioned as an office. Just that the shredder was in there. For all we know she could have had a sofa bed, clothes strewn across the floor or nothing else at all or whatever- the shredder being in there was just a small minute snap shot of that one thing (included with some kind of animal/nursery/woodland) painting on the wall.

I don’t know how she could possibly miss any of this on a move either when she’d moved several times. She couldn’t have forgot about it if it was important enough to move with her each time; and let’s not forget as mentioned previously- the only person who has mentioned a folder so far, has been the accused.

JMO

 

[Cluedoneit]

But no-one suggested it functioned as an office. Just that the shredder was in there. For all we know she could have had a sofa bed, clothes strewn across the floor or nothing else at all or whatever- the shredder being in there was just a small minute snap shot of that one thing (included with some kind of animal/nursery/woodland) painting on the wall.

I don’t know how she could possibly miss any of this on a move either when she’d moved several times. She couldn’t have forgot about it if it was important enough to move with her each time; and let’s not forget as mentioned previously- the only person who has mentioned a folder so far, has been the accused.

JMO

Also, we cannot forget that it’s unlikely she moved with no help. How can these be secure when anyone who helped her move could have had access to the papers?

 

[Sundial]

Also, we cannot forget that it’s unlikely she moved with no help. How can these be secure when anyone who helped her move could have had access to the papers?

Good point!!

 

[katydid23]

Would any of this apply to a handover sheet? That all seems to refer to clinical papers proper ie monitor readings, admission of treatments ie meds, admission papers, etc

Yes, handover sheets ARE clinical papers. They are full of confidential medical information. They could contain information about whether a baby was born with drugs in their system, or if they had AIDS or if they inherited a communicable disease from a parent etc etc

 

[DianaWW]

Just so everyone knows I know if that is her approach I wouldn’t necessarily call it manipulative but it’s very sly, that’s why I think it’s a lawyery trick. It’s manipulative lies if it’s outright bs Though. It is the line drawn between “house rules” and “legal requirements“ though aand just how wrong you personally think those transgressions are.

i also can’t see her saying it without being instructed on this particular aspect of the case by people in the know. The handovers were a big part of the prosecution’s case. Mr Myers knew what would happen here another reason I think he told her to say that.

it’s very much a dodge imo but each side will have a strategy and tactics and perhaps reason as well.

He’s not allowed to tell her what to say. Coaching is not allowed. And he won’t have had any contact with her at all during the time she’s been on the stand.

 

[Marantz4250b]

There is no line between house rules and legal requirements for confidentiality though. It is a legal obligation to dispose of them appropriately- it is not a house rule.

House rules are like not taking coffee where there are pc monitors or eating over the work station for example. A legal requirement is not even in the same dimension. There is nothing personal about it or how we think those transgressions are.
JMO

I'm not sure that the first part is correct, as such. I don't think there is any actual offence she commits by keeping these things. Her employer has various duties under the various data protection regulations but not an employee personally, I don't think.

It is undoubtedly a professional standards matter, though.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Some light reading;

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/data-protection/data-sharing-policy.pdf

That's just the policy document as to how the NMC deals with its own data. It's nothing to do with a nurses duties and responsibilities.

 

[JosieJo]

Because she’s chatting absolute nonsense and the vast majority of nurses and the medical profession or anyone else who works with sensitive data KNOW exactly what the requirements are.
She is trying imo to talk herself out of a major big b.. up and she knows it.
Moo

Exactly..most if not all hospitals have mandatory training on confidentiality which is renewed every few years for all staff

 

[Parker Knoll]

Where exactly they were “ stored “ in her house / flat / parents is immaterial in any real sense of the word.
Her argument holds no weight whatsoever and just adds insult to injury that not only were they there in the first place SHE saw fit to dump them in a bin bag in the garage, under her bed and in her Morrisons bag for life.
We could argue this until Christmas …. you don’t have to be a GDPR expert to know that this was wholly wrong on every single level.

 

[Marantz4250b]

He’s not allowed to tell her what to say. Coaching is not allowed. And he won’t have had any contact with her at all during the time she’s been on the stand.

She was specifically asked whether she'd had any contact with her legal team over the weekend, I believe.

 

[Sundial]

That's just the policy document as to how the NMC deals with its own data. It'd nothing to do with a nurses duties and responsibilities.

Not necessarily- point 16 highlights data sharing and the law. This was only intended as light reading as a starting point but rather to indicate that law and the legal obligations of sharing information which some posters disputed. There are various other places online where more in-depth reading can be carried on the topic, but we have a general basis here in this link of how and where data is shared, the legal considerations etc- it is also utilised in what it expects from a member of staff.

 

[JosieJo]

Hospitals are bound by the Caldicot Principles and will Have a named Caldicot Guardian..usually a Senior Director

Principle 5 says every member of staff should be aware

The Caldicott Principles

Eight principles to ensure people's information is kept confidential and used appropriately.

www.gov.uk